Vaughan Williams's Veranda

[Sid]

This is perhaps one of his greatest strengths, Sid. The year 1934 was an troubling one for RVW as Holst, Delius, and Elgar died, which blasted him into the spotlight, which RVW wanted no part of. I admire his persistence in trying to maintain a normal life and keeping in touch with ordinary people, which, in turn, gave him a likable, more down-to-Earth outlook.

Yes, I read that he was always ready and willing to help people in the community who were less fortunate than himself. He reminds me of Elvis Presley & Louis Armstrong in this regard (& it's truly not a facetious comment/comparison). RVW was nothing if not human, and I think this informed his musical style. There is little or no bombast or pomposity there. What you hear is basically what you get. He may well be less sophisticated than some other composers, but his music tends to come from (& speak quite directly to) the heart. He wasn't interested in glorifying the British Empire in any way, and in any case it was curtains for that by the time he reached old age. Music was simply a way for him to express himself and connect with his listeners, he wasn't in it for glory or influence.

I also have a short speech by the composer as a bonus track on one of those LPO/Boult discs, recorded at the actual recording sessions in the 1950's where he was present. RVW talks about his enjoyment of the orchestra's performance of his 6th symphony, particularly the finale "epilogue." He says something to the effect that "your playing was so good, at times it uncovered some of my faults." What a humble artist he was (I doubt someone with a huge ego like Wagner would have said this kind of thing)...

[Mirror Image]

I'm also one of those listeners who has connected more with RVW (or any other UK composer for that matter) than with Bax.

I agree that there is a "sameness" in Bax's symphonies, especially compared to the more eclectic approach of RVW. Having said that, Bax probably has more stylistic (& maybe even thematic?) cohesion and unity in his symphonies, generally speaking. It might also be useful to see Bax's symphonies as all comprising one big work (rather than seperate works in themselves), they're like a collective journey. That's not a bad thing, because the greatest composers also did this, eg. Vivaldi's violin concertos making up "The Four Seasons," Beethoven's late string quartets, Wagner's Ring cycle of operas are all basically bundles comprising one big work as a group. Most listeners tend to be familiar with all of these works rather than just one, & I personally also see them as being inseperable from eachother (although I've only seen one opera of Wagner's Ring cycle on DVD, but I'm no huge opera fan, so maybe I can be excused?). On the other hand, RVW's symphonies contrast more with eachother and are basically self-contained creations. They have little more to do with each other except that they all came from the pen of the same composer. RVW was a true synthesist and eclectic...

Well said, Sid. I don't know what it is, but I just don't connect with Bax, although I will say this his chamber works are fantastic. For me, he seems to let his "hair down" so to speak in these works. I'm not sure if it's uploaded on YouTube or not but his In Memoriam for cor anglais, harp, and string quartet is definitely a work to check. I find this piece deeply moving. So, in closing, I find his orchestral music impersonal, but his chamber music feels like the work of somebody bearing their heart to the listener.

[Mirror Image]

Yes, I read that he was always ready and willing to help people in the community who were less fortunate than himself. He reminds me of Elvis Presley & Louis Armstrong in this regard (& it's truly not a facetious comment/comparison). RVW was nothing if not human, and I think this informed his musical style. There is little or no bombast or pomposity there. What you hear is basically what you get. He may well be less sophisticated than some other composers, but his music tends to come from (& speak quite directly to) the heart. He wasn't interested in glorifying the British Empire in any way, and in any case it was curtains for that by the time he reached old age. Music was simply a way for him to express himself and connect with his listeners, he wasn't in it for glory or influence.

I also have a short speech by the composer as a bonus track on one of those LPO/Boult discs, recorded at the actual recording sessions in the 1950's where he was present. RVW talks about his enjoyment of the orchestra's performance of his 6th symphony, particularly the finale "epilogue." He says something to the effect that "your playing was so good, at times it uncovered some of my faults." What a humble artist he was (I doubt someone with a huge ego like Wagner would have said this kind of thing)...

Well written and so true. I heartily agree.

[eyeresist]

Do you know, I'm thinking about that 30-cd box, even though it would duplicate my Handley symphonies set.

What set is that?

Re all this anti-Bax talk, I like Bax, but his meandering structures work against engaging with his symphonies, whereas RVW had a better grasp on the rhetorical approach that carries you along and makes everything seem to fit together neatly as a piece. So Bax's tone poems are more successful in this respect, being on a smaller scale.

[Mirror Image]

Re all this anti-Bax talk, I like Bax, but his meandering structures work against engaging with his symphonies, whereas RVW had a better grasp on the rhetorical approach that carries you along and makes everything seem to fit together neatly as a piece. So Bax's tone poems are more successful in this respect, being on a smaller scale.

It's not that I dislike Bax's music. I think you have misunderstood me. I simply can't recall anything in his symphonies that stand out to me. It's like a huge wash of sound, but nothing is remotely coming through and hitting me. As I said, I like his chamber music a lot. There are a few Bax orchestral works that I enjoy most notably Spring Fire, which is basically a symphony in all but a name, but the themes and structure hold together quite well and I always seem to remember that first movement, especially the opening, so textural. It's quite Debussyian in some respects, but Bax's influences were never not apparent.

[eyeresist]

You can't even remember the opening of Bax's 6th?

Which sadly I can't rate as highly as others do. After a strong beginning, it sort of trails away into the unmemorability you referred to.

[Mirror Image]

You can't even remember the opening of Bax's 6th?

Which sadly I can't rate as highly as others do. After a strong beginning, it sort of trails away into the unmemorability you referred to.

Nope, don't even remember it.

[springrite]

Bax reminds me of myself in my 20's.

RVW reminds me of myself in my early teens and in my 40's onwards.

[vandermolen]

Interesting views. Vernon Handley also said that, despite Vaughan Williams's professed agnosticism, his music is more 'spiritual' than Bax.  I'd agree with that.  I hope that I can get to Bax's Second Symphony at the Proms - such a rare event - the only other Bax symphony I have heard live is No 5 at a half-empty Albert Hall about 30 years ago.

[vandermolen]

You can't even remember the opening of Bax's 6th?

Which sadly I can't rate as highly as others do. After a strong beginning, it sort of trails away into the unmemorability you referred to.

Vernon Handley's rates Bax's No 6 as the greatest and as one of the great symphonies of the 20th Century. I have to say that I don't agree, much as I like the work.  I actually prefer No 4 which is always seen as the weakest of the seven. 2 and 3 are IMHO the greatest but I am always moved by the epilogue of No 7.

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

My symphonic Bax favourites remain 1-3. I consider them as much 'brothers' as Brian did his symphonies 8-10. I agree with Jeffrey in disagreeing with Handley's valuation of the Sixth. After a very 'memorable' opening  it flags, as eyeresist says. And the passage some Bax commentators consider the apex and culmination of the whole cycle never delivers for me. RVW is simply the greater composer, in my opinion, he encompasses so much and is much more varied. Which doesn't diminish my enjoyment of the Bax works I mentioned, by the way...

[springrite]

Vernon Handley's rates Bax's No 6 as the greatest and as one of the great symphonies of the 20th Century. I have to say that I don't agree, much as I like the work.  I actually prefer No 4 which is always seen as the weakest of the seven. 2 and 3 are IMHO the greatest but I am always moved by the epilogue of No 7.

My fav part is definitely the epilogue of the 7th. As for complete symphony, I'd say 3.

[vandermolen]

My symphonic Bax favourites remain 1-3. I consider them as much 'brothers' as Brian did his symphonies 8-10. I agree with Jeffrey in disagreeing with Handley's valuation of the Sixth. After a very 'memorable' opening  it flags, as eyeresist says. And the passage some Bax commentators consider the apex and culmination of the whole cycle never delivers for me. RVW is simply the greater composer, in my opinion, he encompasses so much and is much more varied. Which doesn't diminish my enjoyment of the Bax works I mentioned, by the way...

I very much agree with this and I think that some of Vaughan Williams's choral works are amongst his finest achievements (Sancta Civitas for example) - there is nothing of similar quality in Bax.

[Mirror Image]

I think it's time to go through RVW's symphonies again (for the second time this week). Starting with A Sea Symphony. I'll be listening to Thomson's set as I think it's one of the best, if not the best, modern set I've heard of the symphonies. Anybody with me on this symphony marathon?

[DavidW]

Oh you like Thomson better than Previn?  I miss my Previn set, I sold it and not it's oop.

[Lethevich]

Thanks to MI I purchased the Thomson set and it has become my favourite alongside Boult and Handley. Thomson's approach could be somewhat comparable to Haitink, taking the works not as genre pieces but as works that are great and will be played as such. He directs the music with the same conviction that he directs Nielsen, for example. There isn't the micromanagement or delicacy of Handley there, and the orchestral playing and recorded sound really help underline the dynamism of the performances. Unlike Haitink, however, it works

[Sergeant Rock]

Unlike Haitink, however, it works

Pfffttttt!!!!

[Scarpia]

Pfffttttt!!!!

Double Pfffffftttttt!

[Mirror Image]

Oh you like Thomson better than Previn?  I miss my Previn set, I sold it and not it's oop.

I think both Thomson and Previn are fantastic RVW conductors. The thing with Previn's set is the poor audio quality. If the audio had been better, then I could give higher marks, but good audio is important to me, especially when discussing RVW's music. I do think, however, that Previn's 5th (w/ the RPO) on Telarc is the greatest performance of this symphony I've heard, although Thomson and Boult come really close.

I own all the symphony sets. Thomson and Boult (EMI) are the ones I continue to come back to the most, although I do like many of the performances in the Haitink, Handley, and Andrew Davis sets.

[DavidW]

I see, I think agree... not the best sound quality.  Well I think want to buy and listen to the string quartets and the phantasy quintet in the near future.  I've heard good things about those works and I've never tried the chamber side of RVW.