Vaughan Williams's Veranda

[Karl Henning]

Feelin' a wee bit down in the elf, fella?

[Christo]

Who hasn't wept at the young poet's grave in the Protestant Cemetery (i.e. all non-Catholics) in Rome with all the famous names, 'Goethe Filius' (!) including (I wonder if RVW saw it during his visit to Rome, very late in his life, but cannot find it in Ursula's biography - does anyone know?):

[Elgarian]

Faery lands forlorn? Pffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffft

Ah, but you're not getting the all-important context, because I only quoted the 'magic casements' bit. Keats is listening to the sound of the nightingale and contemplating various different circumstances in which the nightingale has been heard by others, beguiled by its beauty. When he finds himself musing about 'faery lands forlorn', it acts for him as a warning bell that calls him back to reality, wondering about what's real and what isn't. The poem isn't a fanciful piece of fairy frippery, but a profound contemplation about the role of the imagination.

See the whole thing here:
http://www.john-keats.com/gedichte/ode_to_a_nightingale.htm

[Karl Henning]

O Thou Transcendent, in a DVD which my player can read ; ) has landed!  Will probably check it out this very evening!

[vandermolen]

O Thou Transcendent, in a DVD which my player can read ; ) has landed!  Will probably check it out this very evening!

Will be very interested to hear your views Karl.  There was quite an acrimonious debate about it in the Journal of the Vaughan Williams Society.

[Karl Henning]

Watched it at last yestereven, Jeffrey. Truly, I thoroughly enjoyed it: the interviews (both previously filmed, and contemporary), the (astonishingly clean) recordings of (I take it) the maestro, himself, the beautiful location shots, both architectural and landscape, the historical footage, the bits of Scott of the Antarctic, the rich and (meseemed) sympathetic biographical detail, the many musical illustrations. Loved it all.

My own quarrels are minor and few. I don't believe I've ever underestimated the horror of The Great War, but I am hesitant to endorse the assertion that all his music ever after lay under that shadow; I don't think the idea flat-out wrong, only mistakenly proposed as an absolute.

On those lines, I don't absolutely object to the interposition of modern war horrors; I think there is a point of immediacy which is valid, but the pile-up at the end seems heavy-handed, and more about Auteur's Message, less about the composer.

That said, none of that interfered with so much that is of genuine interest and value.

My only other quibble is lighter, still ... though maybe it's of a piece with the above. I entirely see the point of not marginalizing RVW as an "amateur folklorist," but there was a time or two when I thought someone or other went a bit overboard to stress the Artistic Gravity of the folksong endeavor. Again, more a question of stress; and less still of an overall concern than the shots of emaciated Biafrans, e.g.

I want to watch it again soon!

[Karl Henning]

Oh! Just thought of another bit to which I take principled exception.

There's a fellow who goes on about the two chords at the end of the Sixth Symphony supposedly being an Amen; but then, he observes that harmonically, it does not resolve to stability in the manner of an Amen.  Now, instead of putting his thesis to the test, and concluding, Well, gosh, it's not an Amen, then, is it?, he builds this sandcastle of its supposedly being an Amen, but a misshapen Amen.

Every now and then, there's an attempt by someone to fashion RVW in his own image, which excites the BS-ometer.  Nonetheless, I truly enjoyed the film : )

[Karl Henning]

Gosh, and now I am musically curious to hear A London Symphony un-cut. Never thought I should be.  I have likely mentioned before that this was the last of the nine symphonies to "convince" me, so a "pre-pruned" version struck me as pert near a non-starter.  Just now revisiting the Lento, and (per the thread I created on this point) I don't know what had blinded me to this piece's beauty erewhile.

[Mirror Image]

Watched it at last yestereven, Jeffrey. Truly, I thoroughly enjoyed it: the interviews (both previously filmed, and contemporary), the (astonishingly clean) recordings of (I take it) the maestro, himself, the beautiful location shots, both architectural and landscape, the historical footage, the bits of Scott of the Antarctic, the rich and (meseemed) sympathetic biographical detail, the many musical illustrations. Loved it all.

My own quarrels are minor and few. I don't believe I've ever underestimated the horror of The Great War, but I am hesitant to endorse the assertion that all his music ever after lay under that shadow; I don't think the idea flat-out wrong, only mistakenly proposed as an absolute.

On those lines, I don't absolutely object to the interposition of modern war horrors; I think there is a point of immediacy which is valid, but the pile-up at the end seems heavy-handed, and more about Auteur's Message, less about the composer.

That said, none of that interfered with so much that is of genuine interest and value.

My only other quibble is lighter, still ... though maybe it's of a piece with the above. I entirely see the point of not marginalizing RVW as an "amateur folklorist," but there was a time or two when I thought someone or other went a bit overboard to stress the Artistic Gravity of the folksong endeavor. Again, more a question of stress; and less still of an overall concern than the shots of emaciated Biafrans, e.g.

I want to watch it again soon!

"O Thou Transcendent: The Life of Ralph Vaughan Williams" has to be one of the worst documentaries I've seen in a long time. From start to finish, there was nothing of remote substance found. The interview segments made absolutely no sense and didn't even pertain to the subject matter about 99% of the time. The editing, or lack of, was terrible as it was completely cut-up and very erratic. The entire documentary didn't follow any kind of timeline at all. The stories told from the various people being interviewed made absolutely no sense and were more of a personal nature and not much in the way of Vaughan Williams' actual history. The images involved throughout were very distasteful, which I'm sure this has been mentioned, but there were several images that were totally uncalled for like the images of a dead child and not to mention stacks of dead bodies, which are out-of-place in this type of documentary, which is supposed to be about Vaughan Williams and not trying to provoke controversy.

[Karl Henning]

Well, there you go: I knew to expect that opinion would be mixed ; )

[Karl Henning]

Jeffrey, what do you think of the one fellow's idea that the opening chords of the Tallis Fantasia are a reference to Toward the Unknown Region?  I do not know the latter piece; or rather, I've never heard it, and now, I've only looked at the vocal score.  So my back-of-the-envelope question is: Is this a case of genuine reference, or is it just planing chords, which is stock-in-trade musical technique via the Impressionists?

And of course, now I want to hear the piece (Toward the Unknown Region, I mean) . . . for, of course, more Vaughan Williams settings of Whitman can only be a good thing.

[Lethevich]

Gosh, and now I am musically curious to hear A London Symphony un-cut. Never thought I should be.  I have likely mentioned before that this was the last of the nine symphonies to "convince" me, so a "pre-pruned" version struck me as pert near a non-starter.  Just now revisiting the Lento, and (per the thread I created on this point) I don't know what had blinded me to this piece's beauty erewhile.

It's amazing - I can barely listen to the revised version now. Not that it's bad, but it goes against what I have come to enjoy in the generously sized (but never slack), atmospheric original version. All the cuts that were made removed top-drawer music, and it is equally viable in either varient.

[Mirror Image]

It's amazing - I can barely listen to the revised version now. Not that it's bad, but it goes against what I have come to enjoy in the generously sized (but never slack), atmospheric original version. All the cuts that were made removed top-drawer music, and it is equally viable in either varient.

I, too, am thankful for that Hickox performance. It's a fine performance as well.

[Elgarian]

My own quarrels are minor and few. I don't believe I've ever underestimated the horror of The Great War, but I am hesitant to endorse the assertion that all his music ever after lay under that shadow; I don't think the idea flat-out wrong, only mistakenly proposed as an absolute.

On those lines, I don't absolutely object to the interposition of modern war horrors; I think there is a point of immediacy which is valid, but the pile-up at the end seems heavy-handed, and more about Auteur's Message, less about the composer.

Yes, this is very close to my own reaction to it when I watched it ... a couple of years ago maybe? I felt I wanted to edit out about half of the war imagery, and 'heavy-handed' is how I saw it too. But there was a lot of good stuff in there apart from that skewed emphasis.

[vandermolen]

Jeffrey, what do you think of the one fellow's idea that the opening chords of the Tallis Fantasia are a reference to Toward the Unknown Region?  I do not know the latter piece; or rather, I've never heard it, and now, I've only looked at the vocal score.  So my back-of-the-envelope question is: Is this a case of genuine reference, or is it just planing chords, which is stock-in-trade musical technique via the Impressionists?

And of course, now I want to hear the piece (Toward the Unknown Region, I mean) . . . for, of course, more Vaughan Williams settings of Whitman can only be a good thing.

Thanks for your feedback Karl which was very interesting.  On the video I don't think that the extracts purporting to be VW talking were actually him - I've heard his voice on some genuine recordings (end of Decca Symph No 6 for example) and elsewhere. I loved the actual clip of him at the start and thought that some of the interviews were informative - but is Symphony 4 really 'rage against Adeline'(his crippled first wife whom he stayed with for 50 years)?  I have mixed views on the documentary but it is great that we have it.  I didn't like the images of dead children which accompanied Symphony 9 - totally inappropriate - Salisbury Plain would have been better. You have to hear 1913 A London Symphony as VW cut out the best bit (just before the end) in 1936. There's an interesting Cincinnatti (sp?) recording with Goossens using the 1920 version which included some cuts but contains that great bit at the end. Not sure about Tallis/Unknown Region - must listen again.

[Karl Henning]

It's amazing - I can barely listen to the revised version now. Not that it's bad, but it goes against what I have come to enjoy in the generously sized (but never slack), atmospheric original version. All the cuts that were made removed top-drawer music, and it is equally viable in either varient.

Thanks (again), Sara. Fact is, that in large part your own advocacy for this version has chided me to reconsider.

[Karl Henning]

Yes, this is very close to my own reaction to it when I watched it ... a couple of years ago maybe? I felt I wanted to edit out about half of the war imagery, and 'heavy-handed' is how I saw it too. But there was a lot of good stuff in there apart from that skewed emphasis.

Really, a wealth of good stuff, Alan. I hope that detailing some of what I found objectionable, did not in turn skew a sense of how much I enjoyed the film.  I am still smiling at his editor's recollection of how ghastly his handwriting was.  (My own is fairly awful, nor do I have anywhere near so good an excuse as being left-handed . . . .)

[Karl Henning]

Thanks for your feedback Karl which was very interesting.  On the video I don't think that the extracts purporting to be VW talking were actually him - I've heard his voice on some genuine recordings (end of Decca Symph No 6 for example) and elsewhere. I loved the actual clip of him at the start and thought that some of the interviews were informative - but is Symphony 4 really 'rage against Adeline'(his crippled first wife whom he stayed with for 50 years)?  I have mixed views on the documentary but it is great that we have it.  I didn't like the images of dead children which accompanied Symphony 9 - totally inappropriate - Salisbury Plain would have been better. You have to hear 1913 A London Symphony as VW cut out the best bit (just before the end) in 1936. There's an interesting Cincinnatti (sp?) recording with Goossens using the 1920 version which included some cuts but contains that great bit at the end. Not sure about Tallis/Unknown Region - must listen again.

Aye, Jeffrey, I nearly mentioned that rather harsh remark, myself.  The implication that the unrelenting Fourth was such a tantrum, and that the radiance of the Fifth was the light which Ursula brought back into his life, was coldly unfair to Adeline, unfair to the composer, unfair to the delicacies of their situation.  A reaction to the frustrations of an irresolvable situation? In part, perhaps.  But simply rage at Adeline? Good heavens!

It was a credit to the film, though, that we were given a broader context, so that even just watching the film, that remark rang a queer note.

[Karl Henning]

I, too, am thankful for that Hickox performance. It's a fine performance as well.

Incidentally, John, you in particular will be pleased that I am at last about to listen to some of the Bryden Thomson symphonies set.

[Karl Henning]

It's amazing - I can barely listen to the revised version now. Not that it's bad, but it goes against what I have come to enjoy in the generously sized (but never slack), atmospheric original version. All the cuts that were made removed top-drawer music, and it is equally viable in either varient.

Fair disclosure: I pulled the trigger on this yesterday. Found it at an irresistable price.