What's to be and what's not to be considered as Music?"

[Florestan]

But of course it's entirely appropriate to take offence - which is the effect you clearly intended. I'm not American myself, but I find it offensive on my American friends' behalf.

I second that.

[Cato]

What on Earth other previous qq?

 

Well, we are patient, auch mit einem superklugen Kerl!  0:)

The questions posed several days ago and re-posed many times are:

1. Why would composers ever bother to use "unpitched instruments" if these things can only express trivial "senses" or "thoughts" ?

2. Can you tell us about a specific work and the specific "thoughts" expressed by its melodies?

[The new erato]

I ponder the connection between underintelligence and the ability to enjoy music based on other than the very simple prescriptions of the OP.

[Alexander_Bystrow]

 

Well, we are patient, auch mit einem superklugen Kerl!  0:)

The questions posed several days ago and re-posed many times are:

1. Why would composers ever bother to use "unpitched instruments" if these things can only express trivial "senses" or "thoughts" ?

2. Can you tell us about a specific work and the specific "thoughts" expressed by its melodies?

1:  Why not to use these instruments? They do their job (the instruments I mean), they add their aspects. Percussion instruments are of use in the orchestra, only they can't play the first (the second ...) fiddle. (Hope, you'll treat the statement on a large scale.)

2:  Well. Answering this q is likely to be tedious.  Here Ladies already complained of that.
It can also be time-consuming. I've mentioned above the restriction of my hours.  Außerdem beschäftige ich mich jetzt mit einem Oratorium (=Besides, I am now busy with an Oratorium).

What I'd say now is shortly answering it in this direction :

Händel, ISB, Mozart are worth listening to.

If you take, say, Wagner, the situation is a bit different. In the whole Tannhäuser practically only the ouverture is worth listening to. And only the first and somewhat the second part of it. And even in the best, first part - as far as I see - the string accompaniment needs improvement and further work, which Wagner failed to provide. Still it is, of course, impressive.

[milk]

2. I wonder why some people persistently draw and draw me here to politics?
What do you exactly mean by "Holocaust"?
For example, I know a lot about the genocide of Russians and Germans. Do you mean this?
[/quote]
No only Russians and Germans but Jews, and Romani people and other targeted groups, from other parts of Europe as well.

[milk]

Is this music?

https://www.youtube.com/v/TStutMsLX2s

Yes.

Thanks for that. Wonderful...(wait for it)...music! 

[Alexander_Bystrow]

Is this music?

That's what is to be called -
non-musical creative work with sounds
or
compilation/combination of sounds.

Why is it so long?

It can easily be divided, without (principal or any) damage to the whole.
So it is just a summation, not an organismic whole.
So it is playable with a different order - from the end onto the beginning or with a different succession of its parts.

Such compositions can easily be written in kilometres.

[Elgarian]

Five possible steps towards enlightenment:

But in what other way can one deliver the true state of things to others, if not stating it in this or that very minimized and polite way?
Or you want me to keep completely silent on what I see?

Step one would be to recognise that that's the quandary that we find ourselves in, when considering how to respond to what you've been saying, and the sometimes ill-mannered way in which you say it.

2. The English language is the most simplified language in Europe, at least if compared to Deutsch and Russian.

Step two would be to recognise the irrelevance of this.

3. You abuse putting labels, again and again - lowering labels on those, whose thoughts you dislike, with elevating labels meant for yourself;  argumentation, grounds being absolutely absent.
These are not very good manners.

Step three would be to recognise that this is what you've been guilty of, yourself.

What on Earth do you mean by your repeated label 'philosophical (un)awareness'? With un-, put onto others, and 'awareness' meant very much for yourself?

Step four would be to read and try to understand a bit of philosophy, if only to acquire a bit of clarity about what constitutes an argument.

"Trolling"  - I just reflect and express my thoughts fairly openly and naturally, with a rare and kind-hearted application of tiny egging on. Open and natural thinking and talk is what others should also do.

Step five would be to carry on trying to figure out what 'kind-hearted' means.

And now, enough. If this isn't 'trolling', it's a very good imitation.

[Karl Henning]

That's what is to be called -
non-musical creative work with sounds
or
compilation/combination of sounds.

Time to apply Occam's razor!

It's called music, because it is music.

[Parsifal]

Time to apply Occam's razor!

It's called music, because it is music.

I think Occam would be bewildered by what you are doing with his razor. 

[ibanezmonster]

That's what is to be called -
non-musical creative work with sounds
or
compilation/combination of sounds.

LOL
I enjoy Varese's "combination of sounds." I also enjoy Brahms' combination of sounds, too.

[Alexander_Bystrow]

Five possible steps towards enlightenment:

Step one would be to recognise that that's the quandary that we find ourselves in, when considering how to respond to what you've been saying, and the sometimes ill-mannered way in which you say it.

Step two would be to recognise the irrelevance of this.

Step three would be to recognise that this is what you've been guilty of, yourself.

Step four would be to read and try to understand a bit of philosophy, if only to acquire a bit of clarity about what constitutes an argument.

Step five would be to carry on trying to figure out what 'kind-hearted' means.

And now, enough. If this isn't 'trolling', it's a very good imitation.

I am really grateful to you for this instruction on the personal way to enlightenment!

Only I have a few very little doubts. Here they are:

For your step 1 -
But I've greatly mended and smoothed my ways, when gracefully saying
'a tiny little bit under-intelligent'   instead of   'stupid'.

For your step 2 -
How can I?  If you speak about the importance of enlightenment, so people ought to know the true state of things and I see that they are just vegetating in ignorance about it. So I really ought to help them!

For your step 3 -
How can I, if I always care to provide substantiated talk?

For your step 4 -
I am already aware of it -  Logic and Honest application of Facts!

[Gurn Blanston]

Hunh! Me Alex, me troll. Wanna play?

[Alexander_Bystrow]

I think what we have here is a failure to communicate.

Oh, no.

It's your inability to step out of your likes-and-dislikes-shell onto dealing with argumentation - Logic and Facts.

[milk]

Music?

http://www.youtube.com/v/1GoUzk6fQAA&list=UUttLCxqYwFotLkZrbuWOD0w

Yes.

As far as this thread goes, you are making lemons into lemonade!

[Alexander_Bystrow]

I have no desire to engage in argumentation with you (or anyone) about what is or is not music.  However, I do prefer to use this thread to post some examples of music which fall outside your very limited definition.  You can entertain whatever limited ideas of music as you wish, it does not concern me.

There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
- Hamlet (1.5.166-7)

Of course, thank you for posting these examples here.

2. Some people are afraid of Logic, unfortunately.

[milk]

Of course, thank you for posting these examples here.

2. Some people are afraid of Logic, unfortunately.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_projection

[Alexander_Bystrow]

Hunh! Me Alex, me troll. Wanna play?

Oh, I am very glad to see the Global Moderator here!

I am very sorry, but this was just sincere and quite innocent talk!

[jochanaan]

You provide a bit more successful talk, but make a mistake.

What is introduced is not at all disorder (you are using here a wrong word. - Is it a slip of the tongue or is it done on purpose to mislead?).

It's innovation, new way, new approach, but it can be successful in making positive impact only and only when it is logical and persuasive. (Logical -> Orderly)

Composers must be very-very careful, sensitive and clever when introducing new ways so that they do not splash out the baby with water, that's what a lot of fiddle-headed innovators actually do.

That argument, taken to its logical conclusion, would have prohibited most innovations since the beginning of music.  Do you suppose the 12th-century monks who introduced organum were too worried about being "careful, sensitive and clever"?  Or Monteverdi and his colleagues who developed opera and tonality as we know it?  Every great innovation has come at the expense of an earlier system.

Yes, you will say that this is merely a "new sort of order," and you're right.  But by the same token, twelve-tone serialism is merely a new kind of order, as is the system of indeterminate pitches and seemingly disordered (but actually highly ordered) rhythms Edgard Varese developed and used in pieces like Ionisation and Hyperprism.

One more point: In improvisations and "chance" compositions such as those of John Cage, there is no real lack of order, because the performers give it their own order based on their training and instincts.  But, as I said earlier, the success of any composition is not based only on how highly ordered it is.  A composition, whether prepared in advance or on the spot, succeeds based on many factors, not least of which is the passion and belief in the performers' playing.

[Alexander_Bystrow]

Something makes me angry!

That argument, taken to its logical conclusion, would have prohibited most innovations since the beginning of music.  Do you suppose the 12th-century monks who introduced organum were too worried about being "careful, sensitive and clever"?  Or Monteverdi and his colleagues who developed opera and tonality as we know it?  Every great innovation has come at the expense of an earlier system.

What you are speaking here about is the development of harmonious complexity, augmentation of it,
not of disorder and chaos, not decrease of harmonious complexity!
This direction happens only with the Retaining, Preservation, Keeping of everything positive and worth, that has already been elaborated!

Is it - in your opinion - the right development, when the process is so interesting, that the Heart (=Melody) is completely thrown away?!

To my mind, it's like splashing out water with the baby in it.

So the key words for the right direction are -
retaining, preservation, augmentation, addition, growth of harmonious complexity

And what are many contemporary composers eagerly involved in? -

In retaining and augmentation of harmonious complexity?!
Or splashing out the baby and breeding chaos here and there?
And meanwhile these ambitious third-raters are being somehow encouraged by mass media and some 'authorities' for this dirty work!

Yes, you will say that this is merely a "new sort of order," and you're right.  But by the same token, twelve-tone serialism is merely a new kind of order, as is the system of indeterminate pitches and seemingly disordered (but actually highly ordered) rhythms Edgard Varese developed and used in pieces like Ionisation and Hyperprism.

Intermediate pitches you say.   But have the white keys been retained in the process? Or thrown away? 
- Yes, they have!

(Hopefully, here you may start understanding me and something better.)