Dvorak Symphonies: Complete Sets & Singles

[Madiel]

Yes I'm a Dvorak dork. 

There are far, far worse things to be than a Dvorak dork. Welcome.

[Olias]

There are far, far worse things to be than a Dvorak dork. Welcome.

Cheers. 

Everyone is a geek about something.  Some of us just raise our "geek banner" a little higher than others.

[Brian]

Man, this is the kind of dorkiness I really enjoy. I'm actually amid a project to listen to and compare all my Dvorak symphony recordings (10ish each so around 90) and write detailed notes on all of them for future reference.

[Mirror Image]

All of the above mentioned are great cycles, and I have indeed heard them all.  It's more a personal taste thing for me, but I never really got into the Kertesz cycle, which I know is borderline sacrilegious but it just doesn't grab me as much as Suitner or Anguelov.  Both of Neuman's cycles sound marvelous and are extremely well performed, but his tempi are just a little on the slow side for my taste (the exception is his 7th in the digital cycle, which in my opinion is one of the best 7ths out there, along with Levine/Chicago).  Bělohlávek's cycle is very good in terms of sound quality and his performances are musically beautiful although in some places there is a lack of energy.  Kubelik is the same in that (in my humble opinion) it's extremely well recorded but just a bit dull to my ears.  One thing Bělohlávek has going for him though are the three concerti included in the set...which...are...marvelous!

Having said that, we're talking varying degrees of excellence here.  You can't go wrong with any of these cycles.  It just depends on what you like.

If I were to assemble my own "perfect" cycle of symphonies, I'd do it this way:

Symphony 1 - Suitner
Symphony 2 - Suitner
Symphony 3 - Suitner
Symphony 4 - Valek for the 1st and 2nd mvt, Anguelov for the 3rd mvt and Suitner for the 4th mvt
Symphony 5 - Anguelov
Symphony 6 - Anguelov
Symphony 7 - Neuman (digital) or Levine
Symphony 8 - Mackerras (Prague Symphony)
Symphony 9 - Mackerras (Prague Symphony) or Bernstein (New York Phil)

Cello Concerto - Alisa Weilerstein/Bělohlávek
Violin Concerto - Akiko Suwanai/Fischer
Piano Concerto - Garrick Ohlsson/Bělohlávek

Yes I'm a Dvorak dork. 

Thanks for the detailed response and listing all of your favorite performances of each of the symphonies/concerti. Of course, if we take away Dvořák's symphonies and concerti, we still have an incredible composer. His chamber music is divine. His sacred works are sublime. His symphonic poems are off-the-chain superb. I'm least familiar with his operatic output, but I do love Rusalka and I own recordings of Dimitrij and The Jacobin, but haven't heard them yet. Oh and his solo piano works are also good.

[Roasted Swan]

Thanks for the detailed response and listing all of your favorite performances of each of the symphonies/concerti. Of course, if we take away Dvořák's symphonies and concerti, we still have an incredible composer. His chamber music is divine. His sacred works are sublime. His symphonic poems are off-the-chain superb. I'm least familiar with his operatic output, but I do love Rusalka and I own recordings of Dimitrij and The Jacobin, but haven't heard them yet. Oh and his solo piano works are also good.

I agree with everything you say.  The operas are certainly worth a visit.  Its curious/interesting how the tradition of opera in those central/east European countries dveloped a quite different thread from Germany/Italy so they tend to either be historical epics or folk derived.  Worth remembering that Dvorak's early career was in the opera pit.  The significance of Smetana in the development of a nationalist opera is too often forgotten in countries others than Czech/Slovak republics.  There is a lot more to Smetana than just Ma Vlast/Bartered Bride/1st String Quartet!

Back to Dvorak - I enjoy his piano music but its pretty slight isn't it.  My guess is that as a string player himself he reserved his most profound chamber music for that which includes strings....?

[Madiel]

The best piano music I think are the Poetic Tone Pictures, and the Humoresques. In those later works you get some more substance to work with.

Not forgetting the 4-hand works, though. Arguably they're better than the solo ones. Including the 2 sets of Slavonic Dances, the Legends, and From the Bohemian Forest which was the one set never orchestrated.

[Roasted Swan]

The best piano music I think are the Poetic Tone Pictures, and the Humoresques. In those later works you get some more substance to work with.

Not forgetting the 4-hand works, though. Arguably they're better than the solo ones. Including the 2 sets of Slavonic Dances, the Legends, and From the Bohemian Forest which was the one set never orchestrated.

I must listen to the Poeetic Tone Pictures again - I have no memory of them at all!  I agree about the 4-hand works but without exception prefer the orchestrations.....

[Biffo]

In 2014 Decca released a boxed set of Kertesz/Dvorak with the symphonies, overtures, Requiem etc - this is still available from Amazon (and probably elsewhere). In 2016 they released a limited edition of the same selection but remastered; this is no longer available as CDs though it can be had as lossless download from Presto.

Does anyone have an opinion as to whether the remastering is worth bothering with. I have some of the works on LP and have heard some of the CDs; they sound pretty good to me.

[aukhawk]

The 'improvement' is subtle, and therefore I wouldn't pay a premium for it if I already had the music in LP or earlier CD format.
The original LPs already tended towards a rather bright soundscape (often commented-on in reviews back in the '60s when they were released) and the CD transfer just added to that.  The remaster sounds more like the original vinyl than the older CDs do.  If you think the older CDs sound good then the remaster is not an improvement.

[Biffo]

The 'improvement' is subtle, and therefore I wouldn't pay a premium for it if I already had the music in LP or earlier CD format.
The original LPs already tended towards a rather bright soundscape (often commented-on in reviews back in the '60s when they were released) and the CD transfer just added to that.  The remaster sounds more like the original vinyl than the older CDs do.  If you think the older CDs sound good then the remaster is not an improvement.

Thanks for the info. I have the Requiem on CD (the original analogue to digital transfer); I will give it another listen before making a decision as to whether to bu the 2014 box set.

[aukhawk]

Then I should add that my remarks above were based on a detailed inspection that I did some time ago, of a single track - Symphony No.6, 1st movt.
The 6th is to my ears the best-recorded of the Kertesz symphony set (I've never heard the Requiem), but even so it retains the characteristic soundscape - a rather steely sheen to the strings particularly - that characterised all these recordings.  The worst example being the 8th.
I compared:
1. my own needledrop from the original-issue Decca vinyl
2. CD - FLAC ripped on my PC from the Decca 4-5-6 twofer
3. 'CD' - that is, redbook FLAC downloaded from Presto, from the 2014 compilation
4a. The remastered compilation as 96/24 FLAC from Presto
4b. The same 96/24 FLAC resampled on my own PC to redbook FLAC (to be more comparable with 2 and 3)

I level-matched all five samples, although really there was no real need, the differences were all well under 0.5dB.
I compared these visually (looking at general waveforms etc), and using some software analysis, and listening.  I should say straight away that there was no significant difference either visually or audibly, between (2) and (3), nor between (4a) and (4b).  1 and 4 were visually and audibly very similar, apart of course from the higher ground noise level of the vinyl.  1 / 4 were visually different from 2 / 3, and audibly (but really only very subtly so).  From visual inspection, I would say that 4 has been processed, but (IMHO) in a good way.

[Mirror Image]

I agree with everything you say.  The operas are certainly worth a visit.  Its curious/interesting how the tradition of opera in those central/east European countries dveloped a quite different thread from Germany/Italy so they tend to either be historical epics or folk derived.  Worth remembering that Dvorak's early career was in the opera pit.  The significance of Smetana in the development of a nationalist opera is too often forgotten in countries others than Czech/Slovak republics.  There is a lot more to Smetana than just Ma Vlast/Bartered Bride/1st String Quartet!

Back to Dvorak - I enjoy his piano music but its pretty slight isn't it.  My guess is that as a string player himself he reserved his most profound chamber music for that which includes strings....?

I agree that there is more to Smetana than those three famous works. He wrote a lot of solo piano music that I haven't heard. Not to mention, several other operas.

[Roasted Swan]

I agree that there is more to Smetana than those three famous works. He wrote a lot of solo piano music that I haven't heard. Not to mention, several other operas.

For me the best survey of the Smetana piano music is Jitka Cechová on Supraphon - well recorded, well played and the most comprehensive.  For sure there are a lot of salon-polka type pieces along the way but he wrote some interesting quite experimental music as well that is certainly worth hearing....

[Olias]

Thanks for the detailed response and listing all of your favorite performances of each of the symphonies/concerti. Of course, if we take away Dvořák's symphonies and concerti, we still have an incredible composer. His chamber music is divine. His sacred works are sublime. His symphonic poems are off-the-chain superb. I'm least familiar with his operatic output, but I do love Rusalka and I own recordings of Dimitrij and The Jacobin, but haven't heard them yet. Oh and his solo piano works are also good.

Yes to all of it.  I'm partial to the Panocha Quartet's cycle of string quartets.  Also the Serenade for Winds.  Dvorak wrote so many good works in the largest variety of genres since Mozart.

[Mirror Image]

For me the best survey of the Smetana piano music is Jitka Cechová on Supraphon - well recorded, well played and the most comprehensive.  For sure there are a lot of salon-polka type pieces along the way but he wrote some interesting quite experimental music as well that is certainly worth hearing....

Thanks for the suggestion. I'll have to check out Cechová. I've seen several of her Smetana recordings before, but I didn't know whether his piano music was worth pursuing or not.

[Mirror Image]

Yes to all of it.  I'm partial to the Panocha Quartet's cycle of string quartets.  Also the Serenade for Winds.  Dvorak wrote so many good works in the largest variety of genres since Mozart.

The Panocha cycle is certainly a fine one, indeed. I really ought to get around listening to all of Dvořák's SQs. I think I've only heard the later ones and that's it.

[Madiel]

I typically only listen to quartet 7 onwards. The earlier ones have various issues... mind you if you like the first couple of symphonies you might also respond to the early quartets.

For the 1st quartet, you will get a significantly shortened version (shortened by the composer himself, apparently) from everyone besides the Prague quartet. The Zemlinsky quartet also shorten some of the others I believe.

[Biffo]

Then I should add that my remarks above were based on a detailed inspection that I did some time ago, of a single track - Symphony No.6, 1st movt.
The 6th is to my ears the best-recorded of the Kertesz symphony set (I've never heard the Requiem), but even so it retains the characteristic soundscape - a rather steely sheen to the strings particularly - that characterised all these recordings.  The worst example being the 8th.
I compared:
1. my own needledrop from the original-issue Decca vinyl
2. CD - FLAC ripped on my PC from the Decca 4-5-6 twofer
3. 'CD' - that is, redbook FLAC downloaded from Presto, from the 2014 compilation
4a. The remastered compilation as 96/24 FLAC from Presto
4b. The same 96/24 FLAC resampled on my own PC to redbook FLAC (to be more comparable with 2 and 3)

I level-matched all five samples, although really there was no real need, the differences were all well under 0.5dB.
I compared these visually (looking at general waveforms etc), and using some software analysis, and listening.  I should say straight away that there was no significant difference either visually or audibly, between (2) and (3), nor between (4a) and (4b).  1 and 4 were visually and audibly very similar, apart of course from the higher ground noise level of the vinyl.  1 / 4 were visually different from 2 / 3, and audibly (but really only very subtly so).  From visual inspection, I would say that 4 has been processed, but (IMHO) in a good way.

Thanks for the detailed info. Several times in the past when we have discussed symphony cycles I have dithered over whether to add Kertesz on CD. Yesterday I took the plunge and ordered the 2014 set, it arrives today. I don't really need another cycle but it will be interesting to hear the Kertesz complete cycle. The sound of the performances I have heard on LP, CD and Spotify hasn't troubled me.

[Pohjolas Daughter]

All of the above mentioned are great cycles, and I have indeed heard them all.  It's more a personal taste thing for me, but I never really got into the Kertesz cycle, which I know is borderline sacrilegious but it just doesn't grab me as much as Suitner or Anguelov.  Both of Neuman's cycles sound marvelous and are extremely well performed, but his tempi are just a little on the slow side for my taste (the exception is his 7th in the digital cycle, which in my opinion is one of the best 7ths out there, along with Levine/Chicago).  Bělohlávek's cycle is very good in terms of sound quality and his performances are musically beautiful although in some places there is a lack of energy.  Kubelik is the same in that (in my humble opinion) it's extremely well recorded but just a bit dull to my ears.  One thing Bělohlávek has going for him though are the three concerti included in the set...which...are...marvelous!

Having said that, we're talking varying degrees of excellence here.  You can't go wrong with any of these cycles.  It just depends on what you like.

If I were to assemble my own "perfect" cycle of symphonies, I'd do it this way:

Symphony 1 - Suitner
Symphony 2 - Suitner
Symphony 3 - Suitner
Symphony 4 - Valek for the 1st and 2nd mvt, Anguelov for the 3rd mvt and Suitner for the 4th mvt
Symphony 5 - Anguelov
Symphony 6 - Anguelov
Symphony 7 - Neuman (digital) or Levine
Symphony 8 - Mackerras (Prague Symphony)
Symphony 9 - Mackerras (Prague Symphony) or Bernstein (New York Phil)

Cello Concerto - Alisa Weilerstein/Bělohlávek
Violin Concerto - Akiko Suwanai/Fischer
Piano Concerto - Garrick Ohlsson/Bělohlávek

Yes I'm a Dvorak dork. 

They're always welcome in my book!    I hadn't heard of Anguelov before now.  I did a bit of checking around and found out that PrestoClassical has them for sale as downloads (currently $50 for Mp3 quality and $60 for FLAC).

PD

[DavidW]

The Panocha cycle is certainly a fine one, indeed. I really ought to get around listening to all of Dvořák's SQs. I think I've only heard the later ones and that's it.

I agree with Madiel, the early ones are not that great.  And one of them is a whopping 70 minutes long!  I first heard it in the Stamitz Q set and it didn't really justify its Brucknerian length.