Favorite Chamber Combination

[71 dB]

I'm still saying it's a myth. I don't think composers decided to create lesser music when they composed for other combinations than for string quartet. My opinion is that composers put a lot of effort down when composing say piano quintets.

I think adding a piano with string instruments expands timbral space so that the expression takes another "form" but nevertheless the average quality of the music is the same. For every piano quintet we have perhaps 20 string quartets, so of course there are 20 string quartet masterpieces for every piano quintet masterpiece!

Beethoven, Mozart and Haydn all wrote tons of string quartets but none of them wrote "real" piano quintets for string quartet and piano. Boccherini wrote several piano quintets before 1800 but it wasn't until the 19th century and romantism when that chamber combination became popular. So, if our perspective is limited to the second half of the 18th century and early 19th century then yes, string quartet rules over other combinations, together with piano trio that is... 

[amw]

Well, every "standard" chamber combination is different, and has to be handled differently.

String quartets have the most history, and there are a lot of string quartets around, so you have a better chance of getting a string quartet played. It's also a pretty well balanced ensemble, one that neither has too many instruments to pick out the individual lines nor too few to make it difficult to employ traditional harmony or contrasts of texture. String quartets are, I think, not that hard to write, apart from the psychological weight upon every composer from Brahms onwards (as a result, string quartets often tend to be very serious). String quintets are basically amplified quartets, with corn syrup added; I like the two cellos version the most, since that way you can have at least one cello playing in its brightest, A-string register for the whole piece String sextets have an autumnal warmth brought on by the soft carpet of middle- to lower-register instruments and are probably my favourite of the standard chamber combinations. String trios, by contrast, are hard to write and even harder to not have all three instruments playing for the whole time. They present an interesting challenge and one I recommend to all aspiring composers.

Piano trios are weirdly balanced, a relic of instruments and social situations that don't exist anymore. The original piano trio was an amplified piano—the weaker pianos of the day improved from having their bass note doubled by a cello and the accompaniment of a violin, and did not overpower the stringed instruments, as they do on modern instruments a good deal of the time. As well, the combination was well suited to domestic music making, which hardly anyone does anymore. The piano quintet emerged as pianos became louder and more powerful, with the increased string complement there to balance out the keyboard, but they do scarcely better on modern instruments, and often create somewhat orchestral timbres that rather defeat the point of chamber music. Piano quintets are probably easier to write than trios or quartets however (a piano sextet, adding double bass, would also be fun to write for, though I don't think it's ever caught on)—the piano quartet, red-headed middle stepchild of the piano chamber music family, in particular can be a singularly awkward ensemble to handle, though you'd never know it from listening to Fauré or Mozart.

Wind quintets (the only really standard wind combination) are a strange hybrid sort of beast, trying to get four different families of instruments to work together—most of them never seem to gel that well, though there's lovely music for the combination it's almost always under 20 minutes. Brass quintets I've never warmed to, or brass chamber music in general, or music for brass band, etc, etc. Similarly, I've never liked saxophone quartets (quintets, trios, etc) that much, though there are a few pieces I'll make exceptions for. Works for solo instrument and piano aren't really chamber music, they're violin/tuba/didjeridu etc music, at least in the libraries I've been to

[Florestan]

Piano trios are weirdly balanced, a relic of instruments and social situations that don't exist anymore.

One can say exactly the same thing about the whole output of Bach, Mozart and Haydn --- but I fail to see any relevance for the actual quality, or enjoyment, of their music; the same goes for piano trios. 

[Brahmsian]

One can say exactly the same thing about the whole output of Bach, Mozart and Haydn --- but I fail to see any relevance for the actual quality, or enjoyment, of their music; the same goes for piano trios. 

+1 !

It is almost suggestive that the piano trio be replaced by electric guitar, electric bass guitar, and drums?! 

[71 dB]

+1 !

It is almost suggestive that the piano trio be replaced by electric guitar, electric bass guitar, and drums?! 

Yeah, who cares about a relic of instruments and social situations that don't exist anymore when we have rock music! 

amw's post about string instrument combinations without piano or wind instruments is good and thoughful thou.

[Parsifal]

Well, every "standard" chamber combination is different, and has to be handled differently.

String quartets have the most history, and there are a lot of string quartets around, so you have a better chance of getting a string quartet played. It's also a pretty well balanced ensemble, one that neither has too many instruments to pick out the individual lines nor too few to make it difficult to employ traditional harmony or contrasts of texture. String quartets are, I think, not that hard to write, apart from the psychological weight upon every composer from Brahms onwards (as a result, string quartets often tend to be very serious). String quintets are basically amplified quartets, with corn syrup added; I like the two cellos version the most, since that way you can have at least one cello playing in its brightest, A-string register for the whole piece String sextets have an autumnal warmth brought on by the soft carpet of middle- to lower-register instruments and are probably my favourite of the standard chamber combinations. String trios, by contrast, are hard to write and even harder to not have all three instruments playing for the whole time. They present an interesting challenge and one I recommend to all aspiring composers.

Piano trios are weirdly balanced, a relic of instruments and social situations that don't exist anymore. The original piano trio was an amplified piano—the weaker pianos of the day improved from having their bass note doubled by a cello and the accompaniment of a violin, and did not overpower the stringed instruments, as they do on modern instruments a good deal of the time. As well, the combination was well suited to domestic music making, which hardly anyone does anymore. The piano quintet emerged as pianos became louder and more powerful, with the increased string complement there to balance out the keyboard, but they do scarcely better on modern instruments, and often create somewhat orchestral timbres that rather defeat the point of chamber music. Piano quintets are probably easier to write than trios or quartets however (a piano sextet, adding double bass, would also be fun to write for, though I don't think it's ever caught on)—the piano quartet, red-headed middle stepchild of the piano chamber music family, in particular can be a singularly awkward ensemble to handle, though you'd never know it from listening to Fauré or Mozart.

Wind quintets (the only really standard wind combination) are a strange hybrid sort of beast, trying to get four different families of instruments to work together—most of them never seem to gel that well, though there's lovely music for the combination it's almost always under 20 minutes. Brass quintets I've never warmed to, or brass chamber music in general, or music for brass band, etc, etc. Similarly, I've never liked saxophone quartets (quintets, trios, etc) that much, though there are a few pieces I'll make exceptions for. Works for solo instrument and piano aren't really chamber music, they're violin/tuba/didjeridu etc music, at least in the libraries I've been to

I struggled in vain to find a single insightful comment in this, whatever it is you have typed in. 

[DavidW]

Well if we ever wanted strange descriptions of chamber ensembles by quirky metaphors, we have it.

[Karl Henning]

I'm still saying it's a myth.

No one but yourself can stop yourself from saying anything foolish.

[amw]

I struggled in vain to find a single insightful comment in this, whatever it is you have typed in. 

Yes, it's pretty rambly and incoherent isn't it? I may need to restrain myself from posting anything over a couple of lines after 11 PM  :|

I'm having a hard time deciphering exactly what I was trying to say last night, but it's something to do with challenges faced by composers trying to write for certain combinations nowadays, and performers trying to play works written for such combinations in the past... or... something like that. There's lots of great music for piano trio that's well worth playing, but it's not easy to play without running into balance issues (or period performance issues), nor is it necessarily an easy ensemble to write for. If that makes any sense.

[Karl Henning]

Probably any mixed ensemble has such challenges. Of course, composers and performers routinely rise to those challenges

[71 dB]

No one but yourself can stop yourself from saying anything foolish.

That's right! Some 500 years ago heretics
were silenced by the church for
talking about foolish things like

    "Earth circulates Sun."

Today, the church doesn't have such
power over people

(I don't even belong to the church)

so as you say, no one but myself can stop
myself from saying anything foolish.

[North Star]

...

Religion is something totally irrelevant to this matter.
It should tell you something that Beethoven was afraid of writing string quartets because of the efforts of Haydn and Mozart in the genre, and wrote piano trios, string trios & quintets, cello sonatas, violin sonatasm wind quintets, and piano concertos before publishing his Op. 18 SQ's. The stature of the medium as pretty much the ultimate challenge hasn't diminished after Beethoven wrote his string quartets, either.

That obviously doesn't mean that there aren't great pieces written for other chamber groups, or that a select small number of 'best' chamber works would automatically be just string quartets.
But all those composers listed, after Haydn (and Papa himself, too, after Mozart's quartets) composers have put in extra effort to their works in this medium, and possibly composed only a single work in the medium.

[DavidW]

Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition!



Little did 71 dB know what he was getting into...

[Cato]

Probably any mixed ensemble has such challenges. Of course, composers and performers routinely rise to those challenges.

Consider these combinations:

Opus 100 — Angular Whimsies (Heavy Paint Manipulation). Bass clarinet & percussion (vibraphone, bongos).


Opus 98 — Lunar Glare. Clarinet & harpsichord.

Opus 97 — Three for Two. Flute & clarinet.

Opus 97a — Heedless Watermelon. (2009) Viola & violoncello.

Opus 96 — It's all in your head (not that that's a bad place for everything to be). Cello ensemble in four parts.

Opus 95 — stars & guitars.  Bass flute & harp.

[Karl Henning]

...

Religion is something totally irrelevant to this matter.
It should tell you something that Beethoven was afraid of writing string quartets because of the efforts of Haydn and Mozart in the genre, and wrote piano trios, string trios & quintets, cello sonatas, violin sonatasm wind quintets, and piano concertos before publishing his Op. 18 SQ's. The stature of the medium as pretty much the ultimate challenge hasn't diminished after Beethoven wrote his string quartets, either.

That obviously doesn't mean that there aren't great pieces written for other chamber groups, or that a select small number of 'best' chamber works would automatically be just string quartets.
But all those composers listed, after Haydn (and Papa himself, too, after Mozart's quartets) composers have put in extra effort to their works in this medium, and possibly composed only a single work in the medium.

Greetings, fellow myth-monger! 

[North Star]

Greetings, fellow myth-monger! 

Here be dragons

[Lisztianwagner]

In chamber music I especially love the combinations comprising piano; I think I will vote for Piano and Violin.

[Fagotterdämmerung]

  It seems I'm the solitary vote for the wind quintet!

  In general, I have a preference for contrasting tone colors versus homogenous "choirs": Debussy's harp trio ( flute - viola - harp ); Brahm's horn trio ( piano - violin - horn ); numerous 20th century arrangements, versus string quartets, brass quintets, even saxophone quartets ( though I love them ).

  The wind quintet is an ungainly combo, but it forces the composer to be very considerate of the balance and tone color of the mix, or write bad music. Choirs are innately more forgiving.

[Gurn Blanston]

  It seems I'm the solitary vote for the wind quintet!

  In general, I have a preference for contrasting tone colors versus homogenous "choirs": Debussy's harp trio ( flute - viola - harp ); Brahm's horn trio ( piano - violin - horn ); numerous 20th century arrangements, versus string quartets, brass quintets, even saxophone quartets ( though I love them ).

  The wind quintet is an ungainly combo, but it forces the composer to be very considerate of the balance and tone color of the mix, or write bad music. Choirs are innately more forgiving.

Well, it was a difficult question to have just one answer for!

I love wind music. For me, a wind quintet is like the music of Reicha or Danzi: Flute, Oboe, Clarinet, Horn & Bassoon. However, what you are talking about, which I don't even know how to call properly, is also music of which I am tremendously fond. That is; a solo wind instrument in ensemble with a string trio or quartet. They were huge in the Classic Era, but only relics in the Romantic, with examples like the Brahms Horn Trio and a few others. Also, the Romantics pretty well went to the piano, which the Classicists refrained from (except the ever-venturesome Mozart, of course). Overall, the choices were difficult...

[Fagotterdämmerung]

 
  The Reicha quintets are delightful! Those are the type of quintets I had in mind.

  Though I'm not much of a fan of the Classical era musically, I actually quite enjoy the place woodwinds occupied in it i.e. lots of nice chamber ensembles for winds, or winds and strings; concertos for each of the main wind instruments, etc. A solo woodwind with string quartet or trio is quite nice as well, and seems to be making something of a resurgence lately. In general, I'm more fond of the Classical ( and early Romantic - Spohr, Mendelssohn, Weber, etc. ) approach to woodwind writing; they're often a little swamped by the bloated brass of the later Romantic orchestras, not always getting the limelight in the same way.