Conducting: Baton, Hands or Other?

[jochanaan]

With the number of people here who actually perform classical music, I thought it time to start a topic that deals in principles, not specific composers and performers (much as I enjoy some of those).  Has anyone here performed extensively under a conductor who used only his/her hands rather than a baton?  Does anyone here actually conduct (besides the estimable Mr. Henning)?  If so, do you "baton" or not?

I've done a little conducting--for years I dreamed of being a more-or-less full-time conductor--and I've come to prefer using only my hands.  I can give just as clear a pattern without a baton, and the advantage of having my hand free to show the kind of tone, phrasing and expression the music demands seems to overwhelm any disadvantages.  And when I play under a conductor, I find myself watching his/her hands much more than the stick.

[madaboutmahler]

It is my dream to be a conductor - am conducting my own small youth orchestra in the Hebrides and Schumann 4 soon in fact! Both of those I will be using a baton I reckon. I quite often in softer passages like to pass my baton to my left hand and conduct with the right hand though, can feel quite releasing after more intense passages! I often practice without a baton though, just to make sure by beat is clear etc.

There are certain pieces, like the Mahler 5 adagietto, I would not use a baton at all in..

Fascinating topic, looking forward to reading more responses!

[Brian]

I saw Antoni Wit put his baton down before the slow finale of Mahler's Third.

Vasily Petrenko has admitted that once his young son stole his baton from backstage before a performance, but he felt the need to have some kind of "stick", so he used a No. 2 pencil to conduct the concert.

[Mirror Image]

If a baton was good enough for Lenny, it's good enough for me too!

[Cato]

This says it all:   

http://www.youtube.com/v/gt1V61SPI_w

[Brahmsian]

I saw Antoni Wit put his baton down before the slow finale of Mahler's Third.

Vasily Petrenko has admitted that once his young son stole his baton from backstage before a performance, but he felt the need to have some kind of "stick", so he used a No. 2 pencil to conduct the concert.

[relm1]

Hello,

Generally speaking, the better the orchestra and conductor, the less need there is to conduct beats.  The less need to conduct beats, the less need there is for a baton to clearly show beats since the hand without baton is much, much better and directing phrasing.  Most world class orchestras DO NOT need indication of beat.  I recall seeing Gustavo Dudamel conducting the Los Angeles Philharmonic in Mahler Symphony No. 6.  The last note of the first movement is a pizzicato on 9 double basses.  It amazed me that the musicians nailed this exposed pizz all playing perfectly together without anyone indicating the beat...they are just so honed in to the ensemble.  I've seen demonstrations of this before in master classes.  For example, a major symphony orchestra trumpet player accompanied someone else while they were improvising the phrasing, dynamics, and tempo.  This pro, completely blended in as if they were reading the music together as written (though again, all but the notes were improvised).  I asked them after the demonstration how they could do this and the response was one ear was on whoever they were accompanying...they were very carefully listening and matching what they heard real time - a most impressive skill to be sure! 

If playing in amateur orchestras, they'll likely complain about how hard it is to see clearly without a baton.  I don't know if this answers your question - but the point is that following a conductor without a baton is generally more difficult and requires a more unified, better ensemble who is used to adapting more to nuance and working off each other.  A friend who is in the London Symphony Orchestra mentioned they really don't need a conductor except for when it is a distinctive interpretation which is what you would expect at top level musicianship.  The point they were making was that when their late conductor, Sir Colin Davis, past away last year, they performed the concert he would have conducted without him as a tribute...and nailed it.  What they missed was his personal touch - the expertise, nuance, and interpretive prowess. 

In my opinion, part of the problem arises when conductors overestimate themselves or the ensemble or the players think themselves good enough that they don't rely on enough clear indication.  Friction usually ensues with comments such as "my direction was clear enough, you shouldn't need a baton."  My advise - unless you and ensemble are quite experienced, use a baton.  If you do have this experience, the baton is a cumbersome tool that will get in the way of the music.

[kyjo]

Wish I could add something helpful to this thread, but I'm taking a conducting class and I suck at it so far.

[jochanaan]

If a baton was good enough for Lenny, it's good enough for me too!

But if Stokowski, Klemperer and Ormandy could use only their hands...!

[relm1]

Don't forget the possibility of conducting with a toothpick:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kq65ufWquRE

[jochanaan]

Hello,

Generally speaking, the better the orchestra and conductor, the less need there is to conduct beats.  The less need to conduct beats, the less need there is for a baton to clearly show beats since the hand without baton is much, much better and directing phrasing.  Most world class orchestras DO NOT need indication of beat.  I recall seeing Gustavo Dudamel conducting the Los Angeles Philharmonic in Mahler Symphony No. 6.  The last note of the first movement is a pizzicato on 9 double basses.  It amazed me that the musicians nailed this exposed pizz all playing perfectly together without anyone indicating the beat...they are just so honed in to the ensemble.  I've seen demonstrations of this before in master classes.  For example, a major symphony orchestra trumpet player accompanied someone else while they were improvising the phrasing, dynamics, and tempo.  This pro, completely blended in as if they were reading the music together as written (though again, all but the notes were improvised).  I asked them after the demonstration how they could do this and the response was one ear was on whoever they were accompanying...they were very carefully listening and matching what they heard real time - a most impressive skill to be sure! 

If playing in amateur orchestras, they'll likely complain about how hard it is to see clearly without a baton.  I don't know if this answers your question - but the point is that following a conductor without a baton is generally more difficult and requires a more unified, better ensemble who is used to adapting more to nuance and working off each other.  A friend who is in the London Symphony Orchestra mentioned they really don't need a conductor except for when it is a distinctive interpretation which is what you would expect at top level musicianship.  The point they were making was that when their late conductor, Sir Colin Davis, past away last year, they performed the concert he would have conducted without him as a tribute...and nailed it.  What they missed was his personal touch - the expertise, nuance, and interpretive prowess. 

In my opinion, part of the problem arises when conductors overestimate themselves or the ensemble or the players think themselves good enough that they don't rely on enough clear indication.  Friction usually ensues with comments such as "my direction was clear enough, you shouldn't need a baton."  My advise - unless you and ensemble are quite experienced, use a baton.  If you do have this experience, the baton is a cumbersome tool that will get in the way of the music.

I appreciate comments from a professional!  Of course if a group is used to a baton, it will take some time for them to get used to bare hands.  But it's true that a good group can do good concerts with no conductor at all--witness Orpheus.  Any player in an orchestra or chamber group soon learns how to keep steady rhythm, when to blend and when to take the lead; that's just part of being a good player, to my mind.  (Good choral singers must learn how to blend too.)

I've worked with conductors who were so poor at conducting that we basically had to ignore them! But with a good leader, I find myself watching and listening both; between the challenge of playing, tuning in to what the other players are doing, and keeping my eye on the conductor, I literally cannot think of anything else!  But that's another post.

I guess I'd rather play under a good conductor without a baton, than a bad one with one!

[Brian]

I've worked with conductors who were so poor at conducting that we basically had to ignore them!

Hah, after reading your first paragraph I was going to mention this! I remember talking to some Detroit Symphony musicians about a visiting conductor - too tactful to name names at least in big font. It was Jeffrey Kahane - and one said "Oh, he doesn't know what he's doing up there, so we've just been ignoring him." Top-tier orchestral musicians aren't slouches and there are popular warhorses they've played 10 times already. But I love relm1's point: when you get to top-tier conductors, then the difference becomes clear to everybody.

[springrite]

When I took my conducting lessons when I was ten, we didn't have a baton. So that is how I learned it. For the few times I have conducted publicly, that is how I conducted.

I am no Klemperer. But it seems to work fine, more or less.

[jochanaan]

...when you get to top-tier conductors, then the difference becomes clear to everybody.

Yes, indeed.  The best ones I've worked with all somehow make us do our best, whether by demanding, cajoling or just asking, or simply by the force of their personality.  They deserve watching, because every motion their hands make, every expression in their faces, means something to us, even if it's only "Watch ME, you lazy fools!"

[Szykneij]

They deserve watching, because every motion their hands make, every expression in their faces, means something to us, even if it's only "Watch ME, you lazy fools!"

After a concert, my high school cellists came up to me and asked if they had messed up during one of the pieces. I said they hadn't and wondered why they asked. They said it was because I gave them my "you're going too fast" face.  (At that point in the performance a baby had started crying, so I guess my "annoyed at the audience" face is very similar to my "don't rush the tempo" face.) At any rate, you're right about every expression having meaning.