Author Topic: Schoenberg's Sheen  (Read 87946 times)

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Offline Brewski

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Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
« Reply #660 on: September 24, 2019, 08:02:16 AM »
For those interested in trying another Pierrot Lunaire, here's soprano Hila Baggio and the Israeli Chamber Project from about three years ago.

The staging seems just right, and adds to the fantastic work from the musicians.

https://youtu.be/eH7OnSOHBWg

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Offline André

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Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
« Reply #661 on: September 24, 2019, 09:03:15 AM »
For those interested in trying another Pierrot Lunaire, here's soprano Hila Baggio and the Israeli Chamber Project from about three years ago.

The staging seems just right, and adds to the fantastic work from the musicians.

https://youtu.be/eH7OnSOHBWg

--Bruce

Thanks for this, Bruce !

Offline André

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Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
« Reply #662 on: September 24, 2019, 09:10:03 AM »


I should post this in the ‘Recordings you are considering’ thread, but might not get much feedback  ::), so here it is:




This 4 cd set is from the RIAS archives, documenting the resurgence of interest for The Second Viennese school in Germany, when in became kosher to express interest in Schoenberg and his disciples. These are ‘historic’ performances in more than one sense. I’m wondering if anyone here has heard them and would of course welcome any feedback  :).

Offline k a rl h e nn i ng

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Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
« Reply #663 on: September 24, 2019, 10:56:17 AM »

I should post this in the ‘Recordings you are considering’ thread, but might not get much feedback  ::), so here it is:




This 4 cd set is from the RIAS archives, documenting the resurgence of interest for The Second Viennese school in Germany, when in became kosher to express interest in Schoenberg and his disciples. These are ‘historic’ performances in more than one sense. I’m wondering if anyone here has heard them and would of course welcome any feedback  :).

Most interesting!
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
Composer & Clarinetist
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http://www.karlhenning.com/
[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

Offline JBS

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Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
« Reply #664 on: September 24, 2019, 10:59:48 AM »
It did momentarily startle me to see Johann Strauss included among the luminaries of the Second Viennese School, although of course, if he was not Viennese, who was....

But then I saw the "arranged by" bylines...

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Offline André

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Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
« Reply #665 on: September 24, 2019, 02:09:07 PM »
It did momentarily startle me to see Johann Strauss included among the luminaries of the Second Viennese School, although of course, if he was not Viennese, who was....

But then I saw the "arranged by" bylines...

There’s half a dozen Strauss waltzes arranged by Schoenberg, Berg and Webern. They have been recorded many times over. Lovely, esp. the Kaiserwalz by schoenberg.

Offline ritter

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Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
« Reply #666 on: September 24, 2019, 10:50:26 PM »

I should post this in the ‘Recordings you are considering’ thread, but might not get much feedback  ::), so here it is:




This 4 cd set is from the RIAS archives, documenting the resurgence of interest for The Second Viennese school in Germany, when in became kosher to express interest in Schoenberg and his disciples. These are ‘historic’ performances in more than one sense. I’m wondering if anyone here has heard them and would of course welcome any feedback  :).
I bought that set when it was first released, and find it very good. These were my comments when Mirror Image purchased it some yeras ago:

Wonderful set, Mirror Image! Some very important names helping to reestablish this music's rightful place in the repertory, after it had been surpressed by the criminals (and cultural neanderthals). Maderna conducting Webern's Five pieces for orcheestra alone is worth the set's price, but there are many other wonderful performances here.
ritter
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Offline André

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Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
« Reply #667 on: September 25, 2019, 04:33:08 AM »
Super, thanks a bunch for your comment !!

Offline Cato

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Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
« Reply #668 on: September 25, 2019, 04:44:41 AM »
I just placed this under Recordings/ Purchases Today: in case you do not check that topic...

There is a marvelous recording of a live radio broadcast of Bruno Maderna conducting Schoenberg's Jakobsleiter:

https://soundcloud.com/daniel-plante-511223801/schoenberg-jakobsleiter-die-1972-hilversum-maderna

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Offline Mahlerian

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Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
« Reply #669 on: March 22, 2020, 07:20:02 AM »
There are TWO new recordings of Schoenberg's Violin Concerto out so far in the first months of 2020. Has this ever happened? What's more, the one with Faust is so gorgeous that I think it may be the absolute best version on disc yet. The Swedish Radio Symphony plays far better under Harding in 2020 than they did under Esa-Pekka Salonen in 2008 (with Hahn).

Maybe others will be able to finally experience this richly colored, deeply emotional work for themselves, without the many problems of ensemble and intonation that have tended to plague it over the years.



"l do not consider my music as atonal, but rather as non-tonal. I feel the unity of all keys. Atonal music by modern composers admits of no key at all, no feeling of any definite center." - Arnold Schoenberg

Offline k a rl h e nn i ng

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Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
« Reply #670 on: March 22, 2020, 07:28:02 AM »
There are TWO new recordings of Schoenberg's Violin Concerto out so far in the first months of 2020. Has this ever happened? What's more, the one with Faust is so gorgeous that I think it may be the absolute best version on disc yet. The Swedish Radio Symphony plays far better under Harding in 2020 than they did under Esa-Pekka Salonen in 2008 (with Hahn).

Maybe others will be able to finally experience this richly colored, deeply emotional work for themselves, without the many problems of ensemble and intonation that have tended to plague it over the years.





Wow. Tangentially, I've discovered that Pierrot is perhaps my favorite over-breakfast listening.
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston MA
http://www.karlhenning.com/
[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

Offline vers la flamme

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Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
« Reply #671 on: March 22, 2020, 08:43:58 AM »
I'll have to hear the Faust; I love the Hahn/Salonen/Swedish RSO. I never thought of it as being poorly played, but I don't know the work all that well outside of this recording.

Offline Mandryka

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Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
« Reply #672 on: April 04, 2020, 06:54:38 AM »


There's a well known account of Beethoven's life which basically ends with him being blessed with a mystical vision of transcendence in his last years, which manifests itself in those trills in op 111/ii or the more rapt passages of op 126 and op 120 and the inscrutable logic of op 131  etc etc.

Similar things for Bach (Art of Fugue) and for Cage (number pieces).

Well Schoenberg could also be painted in the same terms -- I should say that I don't want to be taken as saying it's true either for him or for Beethoven or for Bach or for Cage! It's a recurring theme in the history, the his story, of art, that's all.

I thought of this today listening to Schoenberg op 50 -- an opus with three parts, all choral, all religious in some way. Op 50b caused these reflections, in Laurence Equilby's performance. It's a shame he didn't record op 50c 

Dreimal Tausend Jahre, Op. 50c
De Profundis, Op. 50b .
Modernische Psalm Op. 50c
« Last Edit: April 04, 2020, 06:58:47 AM by Mandryka »
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Offline vers la flamme

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Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
« Reply #673 on: April 04, 2020, 07:05:01 AM »


There's a well known account of Beethoven's life which basically ends with him being blessed with a mystical vision of transcendence in his last years, which manifests itself in those trills in op 111/ii or the more rapt passages of op 126 and op 120 and the inscrutable logic of op 131  etc etc.

Similar things for Bach (Art of Fugue) and for Cage (number pieces).

Well Schoenberg could also be painted in the same terms -- I should say that I don't want to be taken as saying it's true either for him or for Beethoven or for Bach or for Cage! It's a recurring theme in the history, the his story, of art, that's all.

I thought of this today listening to Schoenberg op 50 -- an opus with three parts, all choral, all religious in some way. Op 50b caused these reflections, in Laurence Equilby's performance. It's a shame he didn't record op 50c 

Dreimal Tausend Jahre, Op. 50c
De Profundis, Op. 50b .
Modernische Psalm Op. 50c

Interesting, thanks. I've never heard anyone talk about Schoenberg's late works in those terms. In fact, I never hear much about his late-late works at all. What all would fall under that category? There's the op.50 trilogy of choral works as you mention, A Survivor from Warsaw, maybe the String Trio. Does anything else deserve that designation, ie. the mystical vision of transcendence? I've heard people discuss the unfinished final act of Moses und Aron in similar terms, but that may have been more speculative than anything, as I'm not sure how much of the music, if any, even survives.

Anyway I'll try and check out the Naïve recording you mention. I believe Boulez has recorded all three of the op.50 works, though I'm not crazy about Boulez's Schoenberg.

I've been revisiting the piano & violin concertos lately. I still don't fully comprehend the language of Schoenberg's 12-tone works, I expect it will be a lifelong challenge coming to grips with it. I find several of the later 12-tone composers to be a lot more easily digestible.

Offline San Antone

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Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
« Reply #674 on: April 04, 2020, 07:23:23 AM »
Listening to this right now and loving it:


Offline Mahlerian

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Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
« Reply #675 on: April 04, 2020, 07:48:39 AM »
Interesting, thanks. I've never heard anyone talk about Schoenberg's late works in those terms. In fact, I never hear much about his late-late works at all. What all would fall under that category? There's the op.50 trilogy of choral works as you mention, A Survivor from Warsaw, maybe the String Trio. Does anything else deserve that designation, ie. the mystical vision of transcendence? I've heard people discuss the unfinished final act of Moses und Aron in similar terms, but that may have been more speculative than anything, as I'm not sure how much of the music, if any, even survives.

I've never heard it, but there was a completion of Act III by Zoltan Kocsis several years ago.

Schoenberg wasn't able to compose very prolifically in his last years. His health was in decline, and he found it more difficult to work, I believe.  There are a few fragmentary sketches for a Fifth String Quartet which survive and have been recorded here:


I've been revisiting the piano & violin concertos lately. I still don't fully comprehend the language of Schoenberg's 12-tone works, I expect it will be a lifelong challenge coming to grips with it. I find several of the later 12-tone composers to be a lot more easily digestible.

Schoenberg's music is so densely layered, every part being meaningful to the musical "argument," that it can be difficult for both performers to bring everything out just as it is for listeners to follow. It also tends to be more intensely expressive than the emotionally cooler serial works of the postwar era.

I would tell anyone, whether or not they have musical training, to just listen to the music as one would a Romantic-era work; follow the melodies and their development, enjoy the subtle colors in the timbre and harmony, and let yourself hear it emotionally without thinking too deeply about how it was constructed.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2020, 07:50:25 AM by Mahlerian »
"l do not consider my music as atonal, but rather as non-tonal. I feel the unity of all keys. Atonal music by modern composers admits of no key at all, no feeling of any definite center." - Arnold Schoenberg

Offline Mandryka

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Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
« Reply #676 on: April 04, 2020, 08:28:52 AM »
Malcolm MacDonald waxes lyrical and poetic anout Op 50b - De Profundis, the reference to Bach at the end calling to mind for me his last work, BWV 668 - Vor deinen Thron tret' ich hiermit, more grist to the mill for the idea that there's a historiographical trope being enacted here.

Quote from: Malcolm MacDonald in Schoenberg (OUP) p.174
In contrast, De Profundis—a Hebrew setting of Psalm 130 (` Out of the
depths have I cried to thee, 0 Lord')—is turbulent and and anguished. The
idea of striving upwards towards God is a central theme in Schoenberg.
That he should realize it powerfully in De Profundis is no surprise: but
the texture of the realization is highly original. While a section of the
chorus (or sometimes solo voices) sing the Hebrew text, the remaining
sections—their rhythms notated exactly but the pitch hardly indicated -
cry, whisper or shout the same phrases. The effect is intensely
like the confused response of a congregation, or giving the effect of a
multitude of individual souls 'crying from the depths' by whatever means
of expression each can command. The music is dodecaphonic, though
again with significant relaxations of earlier serial rules. A comparatively
rare example of true six-part singing, just before the end, shows Schoen-
berg's twelve-note harmony at its most refined, with (despite
differences in style) an almost Bach-like strength.


I wonder if anyone here who's thought about it would comment on this idea

Quote
idea of striving upwards towards God is a central theme in Schoenberg.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2020, 08:31:35 AM by Mandryka »
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Offline Cato

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Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
« Reply #677 on: April 04, 2020, 09:11:55 AM »
Schoenberg was a "religious" composer throughout his life, even in early works, which would not seem to be religious: think e.g. of the short second movement of Gurrelieder with Waldemar's fearsome attack against God Himself.

Of course, there is one of his greatest "Atonal" works:  Jakobsleiter.

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/Y6Cd902hRQc" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/Y6Cd902hRQc</a>

 When I think of Schoenberg and his struggles with God, I think of a line from the non-canonical Gospel of Thomas:

"Jesus said: Be wanderers!"

"Meet Miss Ruth Sherwood, from Columbus, Ohio, the Middle of the Universe!"

- Brian Aherne introducing Rosalind Russell in  My Sister Eileen (1942)

Offline hvbias

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Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
« Reply #678 on: May 08, 2020, 07:42:16 AM »
I've had Chen Pi-Hsien playing Schoenberg in my heavy rotation, boy is she good! It's all great, but op. 25 in particular is superb. This is my first time hearing his earliest piano music as well and I enjoyed it. Any suggestions for other discs that contain this music? I see Presto has this:


Offline MusicTurner

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Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
« Reply #679 on: May 08, 2020, 07:44:46 AM »
... and Boffard seems to be good too?