Schoenberg's Sheen

[Scarpia]

I nearly listened to some Mendelssohn the other day. Got the disc off the shelf and everything. Isn't that enough?

I listened to Midsummer Night's Dream Overture and Fingal's Cave.  Both wonderful.  Then the "Italian" symphony, rather dull.  In the notes to the recording it noted that Mendelssohn's Italian Symphony depicts Italy as viewed from the window of a grand hotel.

[karlhenning]

I nearly listened to some Mendelssohn the other day.

Several steps ahead of me (nor am I eager to catch up, in this).

; )

[Scarpia]

Several steps ahead of me (nor am I eager to catch up, in this).

Aw, c'mon now.  Our Felix deserves more credit than that.  Think of the awkward clomp, clomp, clomp of the bride and groom absconding from the church, if it hadn't been for Mendelssohns Midsummer Night's Dream incidental music.

[karlhenning]

Aw, c'mon now.  Our Felix deserves more credit than that.  Think of the awkward clomp, clomp, clomp of the bride and groom absconding from the church, if it hadn't been for Mendelssohns Midsummer Night's Dream incidental music.

A most amusing parody of that, in The Addams Family . . . an episode which apparently was originally conceived as a pilot for the show, in which Gomez was originally expected to marry Morticia's sister, Ophelia.

[Luke]

I have to admit that, not being able to justify spending £70 on that Schoenberg Quartet set with all the arrangements included, I bought it as mp3 downloads for just 13....now listening to the arrangement of the Wind Quintet. Heretical to say it, I know, but i prefer it. For all manner of reasons, perhaps easily imaginable ones. I think the wind version works better as an idea, on paper, than in reality, perhaps. The ear gets tired by the relative stridency. But also, the effect of all those different instrumental timbres tends to draw the ear - we notice that which is different - and commensurately, to draw it away from what the instruments share - that is, the musical material itself, the imitations and so on which are at the heart of the piece.

Liking this very much.

[not edward]

I have to admit that, not being able to justify spending £70 on that Schoenberg Quartet set with all the arrangements included, I bought it as mp3 downloads for just 13....now listening to the arrangement of the Wind Quintet. Heretical to say it, I know, but i prefer it. For all manner of reasons, perhaps easily imaginable ones. I think the wind version works better as an idea, on paper, than in reality, perhaps. The ear gets tired by the relative stridency. But also, the effect of all those different instrumental timbres tends to draw the ear - we notice that which is different - and commensurately, to draw it away from what the instruments share - that is, the musical material itself, the imitations and so on which are at the heart of the piece.

Liking this very much.

I'm listening to the wind quintet at the moment for the first time in quiet a while, and what you say makes a lot of sense. What's the arrangement scored for?

[Franco]

That's funny, you prefer the string version for the reasons I prefer the wind version.



Either way, I find this piece one that I keep returning to.

[karlhenning]

I have to admit that, not being able to justify spending £70 on that Schoenberg Quartet set with all the arrangements included, I bought it as mp3 downloads for just 13....now listening to the arrangement of the Wind Quintet. Heretical to say it, I know, but i prefer it. For all manner of reasons, perhaps easily imaginable ones. I think the wind version works better as an idea, on paper, than in reality, perhaps. The ear gets tired by the relative stridency. But also, the effect of all those different instrumental timbres tends to draw the ear - we notice that which is different - and commensurately, to draw it away from what the instruments share - that is, the musical material itself, the imitations and so on which are at the heart of the piece.

Liking this very much.

Mm.  Note is taken, having just yielded to an impulse (the complete Brahms at Abeille Musique), I must now exercise some restraint . . . .

[karlhenning]

(It's high time this was a relatively hot thread on GMG! Carry on, gents . . . .)

[Luke]

I'm listening to the wind quintet at the moment for the first time in quiet a while, and what you say makes a lot of sense. What's the arrangement scored for?

Theonly information I have is that which comes with the track names on the mp3, but that says string quintet. I must admit I wasn't listening with an ear to determine whether it is two-viola or two-cello - the thing is too fast moving, and I guess there could be some part swappage at times too - but it must be the latter, as both horn and bassoon parts go below the viola register, occasionally at the same time (I'm looking at the score of the wind version as I listen).

[Guido]

Wowzers, it looks so tempting. Expensive mind you. I already have the piano trio version of Verklarte Nacht (arr. Steuermann, right?), and of course all the other standard pieces, but the other arrangments look too good to miss. One of the smaller things I love about Schoenberg and his circle was how they opened up and made acceptable the art of the arrangment simply by the quality with which they did it. This is a sore temptation, I tells ya...

worth it?

[Saul]

Do you think I can bill Saul for the dozen Schoenberg discs I have bought this evening? Wouldn't have happened without him!

Too bad you didnt donate this money to the needy, Would have been more worthwhile.

[snyprrr]

I'm in such a mood that hating on Schoenberg sounds like a capital idea!

I imagine him having Obama's lecturing tone, of which I have currently had enough, oh thou that knowest better.

[Cato]

I've noticed that most of the used or steeply discounted copies of Schoenberg recordings that were in my Amazon shopping cart now indicate sold out.  I think we've created a run on Schoenberg comparable to the run on the Hugh Bean recording of the Elgar VC that Elgarian triggered earlier this spring.   

However, I did secure a copy of this long out-of-print recording. 



It is available as an arkivmusic cdr, but I got a copy of the proper cd in excellent condition.  I'm curious about that quintet.

At first glance...and after a long day...I wondered why a shotgun was on the cover!   

But a shotgun would not be necessarily a bad idea for such a cover!

Anyway...

Two stories - one of which is well-known by Schoenbergians - might be of interest here.

In Alma Mahler's memoirs she makes the comment that what often caused arguments between Mahler and Schoenberg in the early days of their relationship was that Schoenberg delighted "in the strongest contradictions."

Thus we hear even in his early days inklings of the conservative revolutionary.

Second story: in Georg Solti's notes to his recording of Moses und Aron he mentions that the score scared him to death, but that he felt, that before he joined the great orchestra beyond the sky, he had to conduct it.

After a troubling beginning with the Chicago Symphony, he writes that he advised them: "Play the score as if you are playing Brahms."

And then things went much better!   0:)

What I always find fascinating here is that the advice was not "Play it as if you are playing Mahler."

With all the connections between the two composers, it is the third one, Brahms, who seems to be more important as a forebear than Mahler.

[Luke]

worth it?

I think so, very much. Listening to Webern's piano quintet arrangement of the first chamber symphony now...so familiar, and yet so different! Strands of counterpoint float close to the top of the texture which had previously been comparatively hidden, it's all very revealing, and it sounds great. Would make an ideal coupling for the Webern Piano Quintet, actually.

[Luke]

That's funny, you prefer the string version for the reasons I prefer the wind version.



Either way, I find this piece one that I keep returning to.

Indeed - I think I like it both ways......so to speak!

Was thinking about this a little more in the car last night - the question of why I think the piece works better, in practice, as a strings-only piece, even though, on paper, it looks just dandy scored for winds as the composer intended.

I suppose it's for the reason I said - that the wealth of different colours tends (at least for me) to draw the ear away from what the instruments are actually sharing, namely the material itself - IOW though the motivic relationship between the parts seems to be the composer's primary concern, the scoring tends to obscure the appreciation of this.

To take this thought one step further, I think this is why the most successful wind quintets/sextets etc, to my mind, are those of a somewhat less academic type, often those which are more rustic or divertimento-like in feel - Nielsen's, for instance, or Janacek's Mladi sextet. In these somewhat less highbrow pieces the composers feel no need for the musical material to be accesible to all instruments. What suits the bassoon need not suit the flute, and so on. There is a separation of timbres, each instrument or group of instruments has types of material which it tends to work with - they may interact and develop, but fundamentally the characters of the instrument are kept separate and are preserved.

In 12-tone Schoenberg of this 'classicising' period, primacy is given to the row, to the motive, to counterpoint, imitation, fleetness of thinking as the lines pass through the ensemble. Instrumental character, whilst preserved to some extent, is made subservient to the play of the notes themselves - the bassoon is asked to do what the flute just did, and so on. That is why, I suppose, the string quartets are more successful, to my mind, than the wind quintet - the motives move through the ensemble in the same fleet-footed way, but the listener gets a greater sense of the overall line, as the timbres are essentially the same throughout the ensmble. Where Schoenberg's mixed scoring succeeds best in these 'classical' 12 tone pieces, to my mind, is in the divertimento-like forms closest to that rustic genre of the Janacek and the Nielsen - which means, essentially, the Suite and the Serenade.

OK, not much of a thought, actually.... 

[karlhenning]

Karl, for the Schoenberg  Kol Nidre check out these CD's:

http://www.hbdirect.com/album_detail.php?pid=27992

The second of the Sony reissue boxes includes this! Huzzah!

[Cato]

Indeed - I think I like it both ways......so to speak!

Was thinking about this a little more in the car last night - the question of why I think the piece works better, in practice, as a strings-only piece, even though, on paper, it looks just dandy scored for winds as the composer intended.

I suppose it's for the reason I said - that the wealth of different colours tends (at least for me) to draw the ear away from what the instruments are actually sharing, namely the material itself - IOW though the motivic relationship between the parts seems to be the composer's primary concern, the scoring tends to obscure the appreciation of this.

To take this thought one step further, I think this is why the most successful wind quintets/sextets etc, to my mind, are those of a somewhat less academic type, often those which are more rustic or divertimento-like in feel - Nielsen's, for instance, or Janacek's Mladi sextet. In these somewhat less highbrow pieces the composers feel no need for the musical material to be accesible to all instruments. What suits the bassoon need not suit the flute, and so on. There is a separation of timbres, each instrument or group of instruments has types of material which it tends to work with - they may interact and develop, but fundamentally the characters of the instrument are kept separate and are preserved.

In 12-tone Schoenberg of this 'classicising' period, primacy is given to the row, to the motive, to counterpoint, imitation, fleetness of thinking as the lines pass through the ensemble. Instrumental character, whilst preserved to some extent, is made subservient to the play of the notes themselves - the bassoon is asked to do what the flute just did, and so on. That is why, I suppose, the string quartets are more successful, to my mind, than the wind quintet - the motives move through the ensemble in the same fleet-footed way, but the listener gets a greater sense of the overall line, as the timbres are essentially the same throughout the ensemble. Where Schoenberg's mixed scoring succeeds best in these 'classical' 12 tone pieces, to my mind, is in the divertimento-like forms closest to that rustic genre of the Janacek and the Nielsen - which means, essentially, the Suite and the Serenade.

OK, not much of a thought, actually.... 

Nein, die Idee ist echt lockernd!   

What we have here is, at heart, different styles of listening and conducting.

Certainly, as you point out, the composers or the analytical minds might be listening more contrapuntally and find the instruments' voices something of a hindrance.

On the other hand the assignment of a line to a flute rather than a bassoon, or then to a bassoon, is no doubt something Schoenberg considered or at least intuitively accepted as the way to go. 

It would be the conductor's task to let both come through: I once heard live performances with the Berlin Philharmonic and Abbado and the Cincinnati Symphony under Lopez-Cobos of Pelleas und Melisande.

Both performances brought out a chamber-music clarity in the lines, even in the several climaxes which, under other conductors (Barbirolli comes to mind), can become an absolutely smeary mess, i.e. despite all the timbres of a large orchestra, the conductor and the players brought out the lines like a string quartet.

To be sure, there would be no absolute equality, but the right orchestra and conductor can achieve something close to string-quartet lucidity.

And then there is Richard Strauss!   

I recall a story where he complained greatly (using a nasty word) about a conductor (sorry, the name and the work are no longer in the synapses) who in fact brought out all the lines of one of Strauss' large works. 

Strauss found the approach completely wrong-headed: a wash of colors - "a smeary mess" - in the background is precisely what he wanted.   

[karlhenning]

It is....the music and the peformance. Maag has a way with Mendelssohn.
Sarge

Who knew that Erwartung would move him so? ; )

I understand that Teresa once bought an LP of Erwartung with this cover:

[abidoful]

m-m-m-m-m-m- Marilyn