The Men's Rights Movement

[Karl Henning]

You should know that statistics are a lie, and individual cases tell nothing of the big picture, Karl - unless they back a certain somebody's point of view.

Ah, thanks for the reiterated clarity! 

[Purusha]

You should know that statistics are a lie, and individual cases tell nothing of the big picture, Karl - unless they back a certain somebody's point of view.

The statistics ARE in fact a lie (a "big lie", point in fact), and the "big picture" is precisely what the facts do not corroborate. The big picture in question being that men need to "learn" not to rape, right?

And prey, what are you doing to heed this lesson, if i may ask? Remember, you are culpable just as the rest of us, by virtue of your gender.

[Rinaldo]

Brilliant post, coffee.

My main gripe with MRAs is the fact that they're basically a reactionary hate group.

[Purusha]

My main gripe with MRAs is the fact that they're basically a reactionary hate group.

And there you have it folks.

If only you had it your way of course, there would be a special gulag for anyone who dared to disagree with the notion that we ought to kill all men.

[jochanaan]

That is because whenever violence against women is brought up, it is used to attack men as a whole. This is the underlying impulse behind everything feminists do. Feminists, both male and female, have turned female victimhood into a religion, and have now mobilized to exact revenge on their special satan, I.E., masculinity....

You must not know the same feminists as I, for the feminists I know ALWAYS distinguish compassionate men from jerks or chauvinists.

[Purusha]

I do not know any feminists, just regular women. I have a cousin who is a feminist, and she pretty much hates men. So there.

[North Star]

I do not know any feminists. [...] I have a cousin who is a feminist

Once again, your logical prowess has left me in awe.

[Purusha]

How about you answer the question?

[jochanaan]

...All they really want or need, I suspect, is a little more respect. Let them get a somewhat better job with better prospects for future advancement, let them enjoy the love of a woman they find really attractive and really admirable as a person, let them internalize a sense that their contributions to society are widely appreciated - and I'm sure most of them would lose any interest in MRM activism.

While I do not minimize the terrible effects of actual or perceived powerlessness on men's and women's minds, I have also seen that such perceptions easily become "self-fulfilling prophecies."  The man or woman who feels powerless and holds on to the resulting anger somehow projects an attitude that encourages others to disrespect them; while others who may be in the same situations have held on to their self-worth and compassion, and receive compassion and respect in return.

(That also means that I suspect the old stereotype of the feminist being a woman who hates men is - while true in some cases - largely a manifestation of projection on the part of the men who promote it.)

I don't doubt that in the least!

In other words, the MRM would be something more important if it really were going to do something for the men really at the bottom of the social hierarchy, men who cannot trust the police, who cannot get fair trials (and face lifelong discrimination because of it), who cannot get reasonably fair loans, who will probably not be allowed to vote, who will not get decent healthcare, who will not get decent treatment for addiction, who will be scorned by almost everyone if they find themselves unable to provide shelter for themselves. But in that case, why just the men? There are a lot of women in very similar situations - but maybe even worse in some ways because of their inherently greater vulnerability, particularly if they are of reproductive age - and a more reasonable movement would try to help all of them.

Three words: Occupy Wall Street.  That was and remains a movement that actually tries to call attention to the plight of all who are not in "the 1%", defined as those on the top of the economic ladder.

[jochanaan]

I do not know any feminists, just regular women. I have a cousin who is a feminist, and she pretty much hates men. So there.

So you know one feminist man-hater.  I, on the other hand, know half a dozen women who identify as feminists, and many others who sympathize with the aims of self-identified feminists, and none of them are mere man-haters.  Who has the broader experience with feminism here?

[Purusha]

You are not serious, are you? I don't see how that even constitutes an argument.

[The Six]

Keep in mind that i'm not an MRA so i really don't have any idea what they are really saying. Neither do i care. I don't personally care about "men's rights". I just don't like feminism, or at least its modern iteration.

The guy with a hundred posts in the Men's Rights Movement thread doesn't care about Men's Rights. Sure.

Paranoia is a strange thing. When a woman calls out a man for harassing her, you feel enraged. You hate that a woman, of all people, is trying to say that a man did something wrong to her. What right does a woman have to do such a thing? You can't outright defend the harassment itself, because that would make you look like a monster, so you warp her story into something else. Suddenly, her tale of being harassed by one man is now an indictment by her against all men. Now YOU get to play the victim. This is what satisfies you. This is sad.

[jochanaan]

You are not serious, are you?

For the record, yes, I am.  And you appear to be challenging personal testimony about which you can have no knowledge.  That doesn't help promote your viewpoints at all.

[North Star]

The statistics ARE in fact a lie (a "big lie", point in fact), and the "big picture" is precisely what the facts do not corroborate.

Lesson number one: statistics are facts. Like anything, they may be distorted and used in propaganda, but that doesn't make statistics a lie any more than it makes algebra a lie.

To quote Jean Rostand: "Kill one man, and you are a murderer. Kill  millions of men, and you are a conqueror. Kill them all, and you are a god."

The big picture in question being that men need to "learn" not to rape, right? And prey, what are you doing to heed this lesson, if i may ask? Remember, you are culpable just as the rest of us, by virtue of your gender.

I've learned not to put words into other people's mouths.

[Purusha]

For the record, yes, I am.  And you appear to be challenging personal testimony about which you can have no knowledge.  That doesn't help promote your viewpoints at all.

Well, by that token. I have never met an MRA who actually hates women, just crazy feminist harpies. How many MRAs have you met? There, i win.

[Purusha]

When a woman calls out a man for harassing her

Really now? 

[jochanaan]

Well, by that token. I have never met an MRA who actually hates women, just crazy feminist harpies. How many MRAs have you met? There, i win.

That was not the question in your exchange with me.  The question was whether you or I had the most experience with feminists. I have said little about MRAs, and nothing directly to you.  So your "win" is illusory.

[Purusha]

The question was whether you or I had the most experience with feminists.

Mmmh, no. That was not the question at all. The question was whether modern feminists think "men" are the problem, which is what they are flat out saying, FYI.

[Purusha]

Lesson number one: statistics are facts.

Except when they are damned lies, like in this case.

I've learned not to put words into other people's mouths.

So you don't agree that men need to learn not to rape? What is your view on this then?

[Karl Henning]

You must not know the same feminists as I, for the feminists I know ALWAYS distinguish compassionate men from jerks or chauvinists.

At a guess, jerks don't feel that feminists distinguish between compassionate men and jerks