The World's Most Popular Atonal Crap

[Karl Henning]

... There were at least a couple of generations who didn't know much about J S Bach for example, although some of his fellow-composers were paying attention.

Which is to say, that he was at no point forgotten, or neglected. He was only (in a larger cultural sense) ... unsung.

[Karl Henning]

Which is to say, I wonder the extent to which many of us think about it wrong, just as a result of the interaction between (a) the cultural given in our day of The Man in the Street knowing The Beatles and Michael Jackson, and (b) the fallacious equation which leads us down the garden path of If The Man in the Street, towards the end of Bach's life, had not heard of the great composer, this maps onto Neglect.

[kishnevi]

Which is to say, that he was at no point forgotten, or neglected. He was only (in a larger cultural sense) ... unsung.

Or to put into a different perspective: because of a greater interest in the German Baroque in the last few years,  our view of Bach has changed.  Instead of being a lonely mighty mountain among many hills that represent the ranks of his contemporaries, we know see him as an Everest set amid a long chain of other mountains--the greatest, but far from the only composer of the German Baroque who produced music to which we now react positively.

[Karl Henning]

That, too, is true.

[Cato]

Or to put into a different perspective: because of a greater interest in the German Baroque in the last few years,  our view of Bach has changed.  Instead of being a lonely mighty mountain among many hills that represent the ranks of his contemporaries, we know see him as an Everest set amid a long chain of other mountains--the greatest, but far from the only composer of the German Baroque who produced music to which we now react positively.

That, too, is true.

I think immediately of the splash made c.15-20 years ago by the "discovery" of music by Johann David Heinichen.

[Karl Henning]

Aye. And it's nice that we've found the place where admiration for Bach need not mean disdain for Vivaldi, e.g.  0:)

[Pat B]

Which is to say, that he was at no point forgotten, or neglected. He was only (in a larger cultural sense) ... unsung.

Oh, please, not THAT word.

[Karl Henning]

Had to.

Just had to.

[jochanaan]

James: To expand on some guy's point (already pretty expansive, and thank you, some guy!), there is a time and place for comparative thinking regarding composers, performers and recordings--but that time is not when one is listening.  If I start thinking immediately "This is like Shostakovich" or, "This is better than/not so good as such-and-such", I am not actually listening to the music.  Listening becomes fully mindful when I set aside such thought patterns and just, simply, fully, listen.  Afterwards, I can begin to think "What did I just hear?" or even, as I sometimes have, "Why in the world haven't I heard of this musician?!"

[kishnevi]

Perhaps there's a middle ground, or perhaps some of us are, er, more mindful of external factors than others are in our listening.  Which is to say that we don't necessarily "listen" in the same way.  Everyone's brain operates in an individual way, and therefore how we listen is something that is to some degree bound to be done in an individual way.

What you seem to describe is what I will call (strictly for terms of this particular post) passive listening.  But that's not how I listen most of the time.  (Some of the time, yes.)  For me, the intellectual faculties must be engaged for me to be fully listening.  That does not mean, usually, comparing music to other music.  Comparing music to other music or other performances is for me definitely something that come after the actual listening is over.  But attention to what the composer is doing or what the performer is doing (in a work I know well enough to be able to discern such details) is almost necessary.  Call it (for purposes of this post, and mainly to contrast it to what I called passive listening before) active listening.   "Oh, there's that theme he used in the first movement, only now it's in a higher register and faster tempo!"  That sort of thing.

I don't usually render a verdict of "good/not good" or "reminds me of......" or anything like that while I'm physically listening.  As I said, that comes afterwards.  But I do pay attention to what might be called the contributing factors to that eventual verdict as I listen.

I am NOT saying that for a valid listening experience, everyone should engage in what I'm calling "active listening";  I am primarily describing how I listen.  What I am calling passive listening is for me a suboptimal experience,  usually indulged in only at the end of a long tiring day, and usually after such a listening session I wouldn't be able to describe what I heard or whether I liked it or what it reminded me.

No, critical thinking can occur during active listening .. this of course can bring about all sorts of associations with other stuff we've heard before, and everything we've learned.

But those sort of associations don't necessarily occur.  I can listen actively and think critically about the music I'm hearing without bringing in associations connected to other musical works or performances.

To illustrate: at the moment I'm listening to the Chailly/Gewandhaus recording of Brahms's First Symphony.  I'm paying attention to the music and how it's performed,  but comparisons to other symphonies, to other recordings by Chailly of other symphonies, to other recordings of this symphony have no bearing on how I'm reacting to the music as I listen.  That will come after the listening is done.

[jochanaan]

...a more professional seasoned listener...

The only "professional...listeners" are music critics.  The rest of us have never received a dime for listening--and generally, don't give a dime about critics.  Sir Thomas Beecham once said about a proposal to establish a Professorship of Music Criticism: "If there is a chair for critics, it had better be an electric chair." 

[71 dB]

Or to put into a different perspective: because of a greater interest in the German Baroque in the last few years,  our view of Bach has changed.  Instead of being a lonely mighty mountain among many hills that represent the ranks of his contemporaries, we know see him as an Everest set amid a long chain of other mountains--the greatest, but far from the only composer of the German Baroque who produced music to which we now react positively.

What I think is interesting is why only now people are "discovering" German baroque and it's value?

I call it distorted writing of history. When history is written again more carefully, distortion diminishes and the true nature of things becomes visible.

Why is such an important word, isn't it?

Sorry, my post had nothing to do with "The World's Most Popular Atonal Crap".

[petrarch]

Everyone is a critic actually. But regarding the field of music it is the professional musicians, specialists & connoisseurs that do have much more exposure, knowledge & experience naturally.

I see you fixed the typo .

Yet presumably you disagree with whole swathes of professional musicians and specialists, viz. those that went to the unjustified trouble of putting together Xenakis' Terretektorh or the many recordings of Cage--e.g. the Ardittis, capable of premiering Stockhausen's quartet, but also recording plenty of Cage, taking a deep interest in, for instance his Freeman Etudes. So, what gives?

[petrarch]

I don't really think it has much to do with what we were talking about. Musicians have to make a living too, and they try things out.

We were talking about making use of the argument of authority to justify or explain that there are 'better' ways of listening. I just gave you a counter-example that said authorities seem to have a lot more respect and to think highly of works and/or composers you deride too easily--and that therefore can only be the province of those who don't listen critically. They "try things out"... HA! Some of them do indeed, but some others must enjoy the thankless effort, because they kept going back and back and back again to that worthlessness.

[petrarch]

I don't deride professional musicians for making a living or trying things out.

Let me quote what I said, to be precise: "of works and/or composers you deride too easily". You see, nowhere did I say you deride professional musicians (except composers, of course).

[some guy]

The word "teflon" comes to mind, hein?

Ahem. Thread duty. Mustn't forget thread duty.

So, how's it goin'? Good thread so far?

Had any popcorn lately?

[Karl Henning]

The key is: the reference is not to music. The atonal crap is to be found in this thread!

[not edward]

Next up, something a bit fishier: atonal carp.

[Karl Henning]

And for the forensically minded: carpal tunnel atonal crap.

[jochanaan]

And for the forensically minded: carpal tunnel atonal crap.

Carpal Tunnel:  must be under a river.