Elgar's Oratorios

[Mirror Image]

Elgar's Oratorios





It seems that The Dream of Gerontius gets the most praise amongst Elgar's oratorios and, while I don't find it as immediately appealing as the others, I can certainly understand the 'masterpiece' status that's so often placed upon the work. Part II contains some of Elgar's most incredible vocal and orchestral writing IMHO, especially the last 5-6 minutes. Completely out-of-this-world. But, if I had to a pick my favorite oratorio, it would be The Kingdom.

What is everybody's opinion of the oratorios of Elgar? Any noteworthy recordings that you're fond of? Have you ever witnessed one these works live? If yes, who were the soloists, conductor, and orchestra?

[Karl Henning]

Thanks for the thread . . . one result is, I had a look at the Dream of Gerontius page at Wikipedia, and learnt that Elgar added to the end of the score a quote from Jn Ruskin:

This is the best of me; for the rest, I ate, and drank, and slept, loved and hated, like another: my life was as the vapour and is not; but this I saw and knew; this, if anything of mine, is worth your memory.

[Mirror Image]

Yeah, Karl, I read that quote somewhere, too. It seemed that although Gerontius didn't have a successful premiere, it did end up doing quite well and Elgar, in the end, was, overall, quite satisfied with the work. As I said, there's a lot of beautiful music within the piece, but, as a whole, I have yet have come around to it. Only time will tell.

[North Star]

Well, today I heard The Kingdom, and so I've heard all three (the Elder recordings on Spotify). Great music!

[Karl Henning]

You encourage me, Karlo. (Though my expectation remains that Gerontius will reign supreme  )

[Mirror Image]

You encourage me, Karlo. (Though my expectation remains that Gerontius will reign supreme  )

Of course, your expectations could be exceeded.

[Mirror Image]

Well, today I heard The Kingdom, and so I've heard all three (the Elder recordings on Spotify). Great music!

Most excellent, Karlo. Hope you enjoyed it.

[North Star]

You encourage me, Karlo. (Though my expectation remains that Gerontius will reign supreme  )

Oh, can't say that you would be mistaken, Karl. The Apostles in particular has a lot to offer too, though.

Most excellent, Karlo. Hope you enjoyed it.

I usually do enjoy the music I call great - even if not all the music I enjoy is necessarily great.

[Mirror Image]

Oh, can't say that you would be mistaken, Karl. The Apostles in particular has a lot to offer too, though.

So does The Kingdom. The movement Part IV: The Sign of Healing - The Sun Goeth Down is one of the most moving utterances in any Elgar work I've heard. If one is not moved by this then I don't know what to tell them other than "Enjoy your empty heart!"

I usually do enjoy the music I call great - even if not all the music I enjoy is necessarily great.

Well sure, something can be great on first listen and on the second time around it could hit you less immediately until you find yourself not enjoying the music as much as you did on that first hearing. Of course, with me, The Kingdom only got better and better with each successive listen.

[André]

Great thread !

I don't know The Apostles or The Kingdom. I should remedy to that soo though, as I have Boult's Kingdom in the pile.

I have 9 versions of Gerontius, a work I have known since my early twenties. It has never ceased to thrill and fascinate me. There are countless felicities in it and its balance of forces (three soloists only, mixed choirs and large orchestra) is very cunning. The ascent to Heaven and the appearance of God is one of the most sublime moments of all music.  The ensuing plea of Gerontius, 'Take me away' is heart-tugging.

Cardinal Newman's text is often derided, but in a 'Ye Olde England' kind of way I find it communicates very strongly. The four vocal roles are uniquely challenging. Most recordings have the same bass take on the role of the Priest and the Angel of Agony. Each of the soloists must have dramatic capabilities worthy of a Verdi opera, and voices to match.

I am thrilled at the prospect of hearing the other two grat oratorios.

[Mirror Image]

The Kingdom is still my favorite Elgar oratorio. You should definitely check it out, Andre. Get the Elder/Halle recording. It's sublime.

[kishnevi]

The Kingdom is still my favorite Elgar oratorio. You should definitely check it out, Andre. Get the Elder/Halle recording. It's sublime.

Not sure if it is sublime, but it is certainly better than Boult.  The whole series of Elder/Halle is worth getting, in fact.

[knight66]

_{http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,10121.20.html}

My comments on Gerontius from the Cantata thread. Scroll to bottom of the page.

Mike

[Moonfish]

Ahh, Elgar is a weak spot of mine beyond the symphonies and P&C.     Hmm, partaking of your obvious exuberant enthusiasm forces me to listen to one of the oratorios ASAP. Which one is the best entry point?  Gerontius (since it is the earliest one)? 

[springrite]

Which one is the best entry point?  Gerontius (since it is the earliest one)?

Yes, but not because it is the earlier one. Because it is the best one and the one to listen to if you try just one.

[André]

I have the Elder Gerontius and it is one of the best. I find it a bit too polished and even icy at times, but there's no denying it is immensely proficient musically and technically. My favourite one is the live italian Barbirolli with the amazing Gerontius of Jon Vickers - cracked notes and all. A spellbinding, gut-wrenching interpretation.

Then the Hickox, Boult,  Elder and Handley versions.

For 'Kingdom' the Boult was purchased a long time ago (2 years?). I bought the Hickox 'Apostles' yesterday following this thread. I love this conductor's Gerontius and the set was 1/3 the price of the Elder. Once I have both oratorios securely under my belt I'll go for the Elder versions.

[Karl Henning]

Will be interested to hear your reception of the Hickox Apostles, mon cher.

[71 dB]

Which one is the best entry point?  Gerontius (since it is the earliest one)?

Definitely Gerontius because it's the easiest one to appreciate (that's why it is so popular). The Apostles and The Kingdom are more sophisticated works, but also harder to appreciate.

[André]

Bump.

Cross posted. from WAYL2 thread:



Svetlanov's dramatic take on Gerontius was the actual premiere of the work in Russia (1983). It must have been a momentous and prestigious affair, with the LSO chorus (prepared by Hickox) and distinguished English soloists flown in for the occasion.

5 years later Hickox got to make his own recording for Chandos but this time he was in charge of everything - chorus and orchestral execution. Two of the Moscow soloists reprised their task as Gerontius and The Angel: Arthur Davies and Felicity Palmer. The bass who sang the roles of The Priest and The Angel of Agony went to Gwynne Howell (Norman Bailey had sung them in the russian premiere).

So how's Hickox own performance as general project manager vs his previous role as chorus master of someone else's conception of the work ?

Some marked differences are the inevitable result of hall acoustics. The Melodiya account was a live performance taped in the Grand Hall of the Moscow Conservatory, with soloists caught in a more upfront perspective, with individual microphone placement, possibly with reverb added in the control room. The solo voices sound farther back on the Chandos disc, the voices sweeter but also less characterful.

A degree of pungency is part of Felicity Palmer's very special mezzo sound and this is especially the case in the live recording. The more flattering Chandos sound smooths the edges of her voice. I wrote earlier that she could go 'full Klytemnestra' (Strauss' Elektra's harridan queen). Under Hickox she is more an Eboli or Amneris. Still unusual in sound for an oratorio mezzo, but definitely more maternal in sound. For comparison I played the second half of the second part back to back. Palmer/Hickox is still a redoubtable vocalist, but she didn't make my eyebrows shoot up and my jaw go slack at her forte interval leaps.

Much the same could be said of Davies' Gerontius. On both occasions his voice is insolently healthy for a dying old geezer, but it's even sweeter in sound under Hickox. I almost expected him to break into 'Ev'ry Valley' after his solos as The Soul. Under Svetlanov he is more declamatory, with a degree of defiance quite apparent - this Gerontius definitely indignant at the Priest's exhortation: 'Go forth upon thy journey, Christian soul! Go from this world !' Woooaaw, camel, not so fast ! That kind of resistance seems to have melted under Hickox' more enveloping conception of Gerontius' death watch.

Bass Gwynne Howell has a beautiful, rounded voice, fully equal to the demands of the role. Norman Bailey, a noted Wotan (their part as the Angel of Agony also heard twice in the comparison I made) sounds a bit more ample of tone, with a slightly freer delivery and more air around his noble tones. That's possibly a result of Chandos' more blended acoustic.

As for Hickox as chorus master AND orchestra conductor, I found him very attentive to the niceties of Elgar's special way with cadences (musical phrase ends), pauses, etc. The first faint intimation of the Judgment theme at 'the judgment is begun' in The Angel's duet with Gerontius 'My Work is Done' is a wonderful touch. That theme comes out clearly and ominously under Hickox, while it's less distinctly heard in the live Svetlanov. There are other places where I perceived a more even temperament at work on the podium. Svetlanov had discovered Elgar in Britain and was an ardent advocate. Communicating his discovery to his compatriots was probably his overriding goal when preparing and performing the work.

Between the two one may favour Hickox for his successful smoothing of Svetlanov's sharper edges and Chandos' better sound. Personally I wouldn't want to be without Svetlanov and his soloists' searing conception of the work. Oh, and the chorus: they are more involved in Russia - men and women on a mission.

[Der lächelnde Schatten]

Bump.

Cross posted. from WAYL2 thread:



Svetlanov's dramatic take on Gerontius was the actual premiere of the work in Russia (1983). It must have been a momentous and prestigious affair, with the LSO chorus (prepared by Hickox) and distinguished English soloists flown in for the occasion.

5 years later Hickox got to make his own recording for Chandos but this time he was in charge of everything - chorus and orchestral execution. Two of the Moscow soloists reprised their task as Gerontius and The Angel: Arthur Davies and Felicity Palmer. The bass who sang the roles of The Priest and The Angel of Agony went to Gwynne Howell (Norman Bailey had sung them in the russian premiere).

So how's Hickox own performance as general project manager vs his previous role as chorus master of someone else's conception of the work ?

Some marked differences are the inevitable result of hall acoustics. The Melodiya account was a live performance taped in the Grand Hall of the Moscow Conservatory, with soloists caught in a more upfront perspective, with individual microphone placement, possibly with reverb added in the control room. The solo voices sound farther back on the Chandos disc, the voices sweeter but also less characterful.

A degree of pungency is part of Felicity Palmer's very special mezzo sound and this is especially the case in the live recording. The more flattering Chandos sound smooths the edges of her voice. I wrote earlier that she could go 'full Klytemnestra' (Strauss' Elektra's harridan queen). Under Hickox she is more an Eboli or Amneris. Still unusual in sound for an oratorio mezzo, but definitely more maternal in sound. For comparison I played the second half of the second part back to back. Palmer/Hickox is still a redoubtable vocalist, but she didn't make my eyebrows shoot up and my jaw go slack at her forte interval leaps.

Much the same could be said of Davies' Gerontius. On both occasions his voice is insolently healthy for a dying old geezer, but it's even sweeter in sound under Hickox. I almost expected him to break into 'Ev'ry Valley' after his solos as The Soul. Under Svetlanov he is more declamatory, with a degree of defiance quite apparent - this Gerontius definitely indignant at the Priest's exhortation: 'Go forth upon thy journey, Christian soul! Go from this world !' Woooaaw, camel, not so fast ! That kind of resistance seems to have melted under Hickox' more enveloping conception of Gerontius' death watch.

Bass Gwynne Howell has a beautiful, rounded voice, fully equal to the demands of the role. Norman Bailey, a noted Wotan (their part as the Angel of Agony also heard twice in the comparison I made) sounds a bit more ample of tone, with a slightly freer delivery and more air around his noble tones. That's possibly a result of Chandos' more blended acoustic.

As for Hickox as chorus master AND orchestra conductor, I found him very attentive to the niceties of Elgar's special way with cadences (musical phrase ends), pauses, etc. The first faint intimation of the Judgment theme at 'the judgment is begun' in The Angel's duet with Gerontius 'My Work is Done' is a wonderful touch. That theme comes out clearly and ominously under Hickox, while it's less distinctly heard in the live Svetlanov. There are other places where I perceived a more even temperament at work on the podium. Svetlanov had discovered Elgar in Britain and was an ardent advocate. Communicating his discovery to his compatriots was probably his overriding goal when preparing and performing the work.

Between the two one may favour Hickox for his successful smoothing of Svetlanov's sharper edges and Chandos' better sound. Personally I wouldn't want to be without Svetlanov and his soloists' searing conception of the work. Oh, and the chorus: they are much more involved in Russia - men and women on a mission.

Thanks for the write-up, @André. I do have one question: between Svetlanov, Hickox, Boult, Elder and Barbirolli, which performance of Gerontius do you prefer?