Speaker and Headphone Choices for listening to Classical Music

[71 dB]

So, do you prefer neutral or smooth and warm???   

I take it you ask me? Smooth means neutral here (opposite of crumpled = non-neutral). That's my point: Uncrossfeeded sound is rarely neutral with headphones, because it's terrorized by spatial distortion. Taking distortion away with crossfeeding gives "neutral" sound.

Properly designed crossfeeders don't touch bass/treble balance, so they don't make the sound warmer or colder.

Neutral, natural, precise and distortion-free ("High Fidelity") sound is my thing (and should be everyone's thing for that matter) and crossfeeding helps a lot getting that. 

[andolink]

Well I'm always in favor of whatever increases neutrality and decreases distortion so I'm perfectly willing to add a cross-feed circuit to my gear to at least see what the benefits or drawbacks might be.  Is the Meier amp (I almost bought the Corda Jazz when in the market for an amp) an example of cross-feed implementation you like?

[Jay F]

Uncrossfeeded

Uncrossfed?

[71 dB]

Well I'm always in favor of whatever increases neutrality and decreases distortion so I'm perfectly willing to add a cross-feed circuit to my gear to at least see what the benefits or drawbacks might be.

Is the Meier amp (I almost bought the Corda Jazz when in the market for an amp) an example of cross-feed implementation you like?

Crossfeeding means a change of how you think about headphone listening. For me it was a huge eureka -moment. Recordings are made for loudspeakers, so things go wrong with headphones. People just think spatial distortion is part of headphone sound and not a distortion at all. For beginners the benefit of crossfeed reveals itself slowly (hours rather than minutes), but when one gets the spatial distortion thing, there is no doubt about it. Crossfeeded sound is natural, less harsh, "peaceful" and free of extreme spatial effects. That's why some people may think crossfeeding removes something, but that's not the case. What is removed doesn't belong to the music in the first place and are absent in loudspeaker listening. 

Meier Audio uses good crossfeed circuits. Good products all I know, but I prefer self-constructed crossfeeders/headphone adapters (much cheaper and I can have the crossfeed levels I want).

Uncrossfed?

Yes. 

[DavidW]

Thanks for quantifying and elaborating 71 dB.

[Henk]

People arguing about Crossfade just can't stand others to listen by loudspeakers.

[71 dB]

Thanks for quantifying and elaborating 71 dB.

The idea of crossfeeding has been around for 60 years of so. Back in the beginning headphones and other audio gear where much worse than today and spatial distortion was "least of the problems". Even commercial products where brought to the market, but they didn't sell. People didn't listen to music with headphones that much and the benefits where iffy, since sound quality was compromised in many ways.

Jump ahead 50-60 years. Today we use headphones much more and headphones have developped to provide extremely precise sound. All the other problems have been solved, but spatial distortion is till there for most people. The good news is crossfeeding is technically easy. The bad news is people are ignorant and unwilling to open their eyes (ears) to a problem they don't know existed: spatial distortion. Despite of my education (acoustics engineering) I was ignorant to spatial distortion for years until a few years back I realised there are serious problems with headphone listening (another smaller, but significant problem is too high headphone jack output impedance of many devices).

So, ashamed of my years of ignorance I have been "correcting my mistakes". Headphone adapters and crossfeeders have became an "obsession" to me. I feel the spatial distortion problem should be addressed much more seriously. It's not just "super-stereo giving headache to some people". It's distortion created by brain and it ruins the listening experience. It's not rational to say we better just "get used to it". We don't need to "get used to distortion" in 21st century.

Line level crossfeeders are simple, cheap to construct (half dozen resistors + few capasitors cost few dollars/euros/pounds/whatever). These crossfeeders work properly. I made two of these because it's fun. I gave the other one to my friend. He has it between the pre out and main in connectors of his NAD 302 amplifier. I also gave him a headphone extension cable with 10 Ω resistors soldered between signal and ground wires. So, for a few bucks he has crossfeeding and a "headphone amp" with effective output impedance of 10 Ω meaning satisfactory damping factor of 20 with his old Sennheiser HD-580 headphones. Not exactly "high end", but a massive improvement for a few buck! High end manufacturers say you need snake oil and rocks from Mars. Engineers do what is needed for the price of a coffee cup. 

My friend isn't as demanding as I am. I prefer "high end" quality without paying "high end" prices. So, I don't settle at impedance reduction cable tricks. I use a headphone adapter connected to the loudspeaker terminals of my amp. It attennuates the signal by a factor of about 1000, does crossfeeding (6 levels to choose from) and some other tricks like mono sound and provides an output impedance of 1 Ω for my Sennheiser HD-598 headphones. I posted the schematics of this apparatus in my earlier response. It works and measures very well. Of course, some people don't believe it, not before I dip the damn thing in snake oil. 

The parts for my current headphone adapter costs about 50 euros. Most of that goes to the box, swithes and connectors. Of course, it took many many hours to design and construct it, but was fun, a wonderful hobby. Try and find a commercial product with six crossfeed levels!

Those who can't design and construct crossfeeders themselves can ask help from someone who can or buy commercial products.

The crossfeeders in commercial headphone amps typically use crossfeed levels of -10 to -6 dB. My adapter goes from -10 to -1 dB, so I can crossfeed harder if needed and there is a need for that quite often. Classical music usually needs crossfeeding around -10 to -5 dB, while King Crimson's and Tangerine Dream's albums seem to need -1 dB crossfeeding to be tamed enough. Movies (when watching tv/dvd/Blu-ray) have originally multichannel sound. When those channels are downmixed to stereo for headphones, the surround channels produce strong spatial distortion. So, -1 dB crossfeeding is needed for movies. This goes for multichannel SACDs too. In fact, multichannel SACD's sound extremely good, when the downmix algorithm is Lt/Rt (Left total/Right total) and strong -1 dB crossfeed is used. So, crossfeeding makes multichannel sound beneficial with headphones, not only with loudspeakers.

People arguing about Crossfade just can't stand others to listen by loudspeakers.

Actually people who prefer loudspeakers should really love crossfeeding because it makes headphone sound similar to loudspeaker sound (in respect of sound image). Loudspeaker sound is ALWAYS crossfed (strongly) acoustically.

I have nothing against people who listen to loudspeakers mainly/only, but if you listen with headphones, crossfeed!

[Henk]

The idea of crossfeeding has been around for 60 years of so. Back in the beginning headphones and other audio gear where much worse than today and spatial distortion was "least of the problems". Even commercial products where brought to the market, but they didn't sell. People didn't listen to music with headphones that much and the benefits where iffy, since sound quality was compromised in many ways.

Jump ahead 50-60 years. Today we use headphones much more and headphones have developped to provide extremely precise sound. All the other problems have been solved, but spatial distortion is till there for most people. The good news is crossfeeding is technically easy. The bad news is people are ignorant and unwilling to open their eyes (ears) to a problem they don't know existed: spatial distortion. Despite of my education (acoustics engineering) I was ignorant to spatial distortion for years until a few years back I realised there are serious problems with headphone listening (another smaller, but significant problem is too high headphone jack output impedance of many devices).

So, ashamed of my years of ignorance I have been "correcting my mistakes". Headphone adapters and crossfeeders have became an "obsession" to me. I feel the spatial distortion problem should be addressed much more seriously. It's not just "super-stereo giving headache to some people". It's distortion created by brain and it ruins the listening experience. It's not rational to say we better just "get used to it". We don't need to "get used to distortion" in 21st century.

Line level crossfeeders are simple, cheap to construct (half dozen resistors + few capasitors cost few dollars/euros/pounds/whatever). These crossfeeders work properly. I made two of these because it's fun. I gave the other one to my friend. He has it between the pre out and main in connectors of his NAD 302 amplifier. I also gave him a headphone extension cable with 10 Ω resistors soldered between signal and ground wires. So, for a few bucks he has crossfeeding and a "headphone amp" with effective output impedance of 10 Ω meaning satisfactory damping factor of 20 with his old Sennheiser HD-580 headphones. Not exactly "high end", but a massive improvement for a few buck! High end manufacturers say you need snake oil and rocks from Mars. Engineers do what is needed for the price of a coffee cup. 

My friend isn't as demanding as I am. I prefer "high end" quality without paying "high end" prices. So, I don't settle at impedance reduction cable tricks. I use a headphone adapter connected to the loudspeaker terminals of my amp. It attennuates the signal by a factor of about 1000, does crossfeeding (6 levels to choose from) and some other tricks like mono sound and provides an output impedance of 1 Ω for my Sennheiser HD-598 headphones. I posted the schematics of this apparatus in my earlier response. It works and measures very well. Of course, some people don't believe it, not before I dip the damn thing in snake oil. 

The parts for my current headphone adapter costs about 50 euros. Most of that goes to the box, swithes and connectors. Of course, it took many many hours to design and construct it, but was fun, a wonderful hobby. Try and find a commercial product with six crossfeed levels!

Those who can't design and construct crossfeeders themselves can ask help from someone who can or buy commercial products.

The crossfeeders in commercial headphone amps typically use crossfeed levels of -10 to -6 dB. My adapter goes from -10 to -1 dB, so I can crossfeed harder if needed and there is a need for that quite often. Classical music usually needs crossfeeding around -10 to -5 dB, while King Crimson's and Tangerine Dream's albums seem to need -1 dB crossfeeding to be tamed enough. Movies (when watching tv/dvd/Blu-ray) have originally multichannel sound. When those channels are downmixed to stereo for headphones, the surround channels produce strong spatial distortion. So, -1 dB crossfeeding is needed for movies. This goes for multichannel SACDs too. In fact, multichannel SACD's sound extremely good, when the downmix algorithm is Lt/Rt (Left total/Right total) and strong -1 dB crossfeed is used. So, crossfeeding makes multichannel sound beneficial with headphones, not only with loudspeakers.

Actually people who prefer loudspeakers should really love crossfeeding because it makes headphone sound similar to loudspeaker sound (in respect of sound image). Loudspeaker sound is ALWAYS crossfed (strongly) acoustically.

I have nothing against people who listen to loudspeakers mainly/only, but if you listen with headphones, crossfeed!

Listening without crossfeed doesn't spoil the music in any way. So don't complain.

[71 dB]

Listening without crossfeed doesn't spoil the music in any way. So don't complain.

I'm not complaining. I am educating. 

[Drosera]

Is that the one true scotsman fallacy?  You define high-end headphone amps as the headphone amps that don't include cross feed?  Meier, Headroom and FiiO all include cross feed and they encompass the range from high end to midrange to entry level.

It does have that smell. But that's only because HiFi is such a nebulous and ill-defined term that means radically different things to different people. So, let's just take a completely arbitrary cut-off point of $1000, and consider the heaphone amps above this point to be 'high-end' (in ambition at least). There are very few examples of any of these being provided with cross-feed, even as an optional extra. Yet, these amplifiers are often built by people who have been in the headphone business for a long time and are quite aware of the effect of cross-feed. Yet, they don't provide this feature and neither do their customers (usually also people with some experience in headphone listening) seem to demand it. From this I extrapolate, rightly or wrongly, that my own feelings towards cross-feed are apparently shared by quite a few others with enough experience to make a well-judged decision in this matter.

One exception to this rule did pop into my head today, and that's the SPL Phonitor. Which is quite an interesting exception, because it has the most elaborate implementation of cross-feed I've ever seen. Unfortunately, although I've heard the Phonitor I haven't had the chance to play around with this feature yet, so I don't know how it performs in that case.

What lies at the heart of my opinion on cross-feed is that I had kind of a reverse Aha-experience compared to 71dB. When I first started out listening to heapdhones I started out listening with cross-feed switched on, because initially it did sound easier on the ears (cross-feed was on a Meier Corda Opera amp, a former flagship that has one of the more advanced implementations of Meier's cross-feed). It was only after some time (months? years?) that I tried listening with cross-feed switched off. The result was a revelation to me: no more strangely diffuse tunnel-vision soundstage. No more masking of detail, that was actually one of the main attractions of headphone listening.

On a sidenote, I did just realise that all my current favourite heapdhones have angled drivers. This probably goes a little way towards explaining why I have no problem hearing a coherent soundstage without cross-feed. The rest, I feel, is adaptation. Your brain learns to adapt to correctly process the sound information as relayed by headphones.

So that is actual my main point from my first reaction: cross-feed may offer benefits to some people, but it's hardly essential for a pleasant listening experience.

Crossfeed makes the soundstage narrower and that's good because without crossfeeding most of the sound comes from your shoulders near your ears and that is simply wrong. Crossfeeding "bends" the sound forward, away form your ears were it belongs. If you get "evenly distributed 'headstage'" without crossfeed, your recordings are strangely headphone optimized. Mine aren't, because most of them are made for louspeakers without much consideration of headphones.

But this is precisely one the effects I don't like about cross-feed. It reduces the soundstage way too much in most implementations I've heard.

Full-spectrum sound waves? 20-20000 Hz? Well, some loudspeakers do that. So do some headphones. Crossfeeding has nothing to do with this.

What I tried to say is that feeding two different electrical signals into each other, causing some cancellation effect, is different from the cancellations you get through the interaction of the sound waves produced by two loudspeakers reproducing a stereo recording (next to room effects). At least, it's the only explanation I can think of for the significant reduction in sound quality I experience from cross-feed.

Nothing magical about it really. Detail hidden by spatial distortion is revealed when spatial distortion is removed. It's logical. I have many schematics of different kind of crossfeeders because I like designing and constructing them. The smallest one is for my iPod (just a 0.56 mH coil and resitor between left and right channel - works very nicely considering the extreme simplicity), but here's the schematics for my current headphone adapter with 6 crossfeed levels:

Thank you very much for your explanations and the schematics. I might just try and build it if I can find some time. Especially the prospect of being able to apply a mild cross-feed in a hardware implementation is something I would still like the experiment with.

[G. String]

I take it you ask me?

No, not only you. I meant every poster who didn't respond to OP's query and instead kept on this, facts based on opinions, discussion/argument. Very disrespectful and against forum etiquette.

[Daverz]

I was thinking about getting a Schiit Magni for my Sen 650s.  I'm using the headphone jack of my Bryston b-60 right now.  Very smooth, but lacking in deep bass.  I also have a Musical Fidelity V-Can, but while it has the deep bass, it has too much gain, so that the volume is too loud at the sub-optimal low position of the pot.  It's also somewhat edgy sounding.

http://schiit.com/products/magni

[DavidW]

No, not only you. I meant every poster who didn't respond to OP's query and instead kept on this, facts based on opinions, discussion/argument. Very disrespectful and against forum etiquette.

Don't be rude.  It is not against forum etiquette to discuss the full nature of the topic at hand.  See http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,5.0.html and to quote from the forum guidelines "By all means, discuss and argue the topic at hand, but do not make personal attacks, belittle, make fun of, or insult another member."

We are not lobbing insults at each other, we are having a spirited discussion relating to factors that have an impact on speakers and headphones.  And just because you created a discussion does not mean that you own it.  You need to respect us and our right to enjoy the conversation wherever it takes us.

I recommended several headphones to you, I've also recommended one pair of speakers in previous posts.  To answer your second question, I prefer slightly warmer than neutral.

[DavidW]

So that is actual my main point from my first reaction: cross-feed may offer benefits to some people, but it's hardly essential for a pleasant listening experience.

Thanks for that nuanced elaboration on your previous post.  I think that we are on the same page.  BTW angled drivers give depth (but not width) to the sound field but don't overcome the inherent problem that the recording is not binaural.

[DavidW]

I was thinking about getting a Schiit Magni for my Sen 650s.  I'm using the headphone jack of my Bryston b-60 right now.  Very smooth, but lacking in deep bass.  I also have a Musical Fidelity V-Can, but while it has the deep bass, it has too much gain, so that the volume is too loud at the sub-optimal low position of the pot.  It's also somewhat edgy sounding.

http://schiit.com/products/magni

That Magni looks like an insane deal!  How did you find out about those!?  I can see connecting a cd player up to it given the rca inputs, but how would you connect a laptop to it?  Are you using an external dac?  Or not an issue?

[Brian]

That Magni looks like an insane deal!  How did you find out about those!?  I can see connecting a cd player up to it given the rca inputs, but how would you connect a laptop to it?  Are you using an external dac?  Or not an issue?

Schiit also makes a $99 DAC. I'm thinking of getting the two as a combo package, also. But this would be my first foray into any sort of fancy audio equipment, aside from my headphones (Audio Technica ATH M50), so I don't know what else would be needed, or what difference it really does make in sound quality. Right now I just stick the headphones straight into the laptop jack.

Todd has had good experiences with Schiit.

P.S. Glad this thread has been unlocked.

[Daverz]

That Magni looks like an insane deal!  How did you find out about those!?  I can see connecting a cd player up to it given the rca inputs, but how would you connect a laptop to it?  Are you using an external dac?  Or not an issue?

You must have missed all the Schiity hype.

It's meant to go with the companion USB DAC or similar.  I use a Squeezebox and an outboard DAC with a coaxial cable.

[DavidW]

Nice!  I'll have to put it on a wishlist.  Especially after buying $100 of Wagner I think I'm done with audio purchases for the time being.

[71 dB]

What lies at the heart of my opinion on cross-feed is that I had kind of a reverse Aha-experience compared to 71dB. When I first started out listening to heapdhones I started out listening with cross-feed switched on, because initially it did sound easier on the ears (cross-feed was on a Meier Corda Opera amp, a former flagship that has one of the more advanced implementations of Meier's cross-feed). It was only after some time (months? years?) that I tried listening with cross-feed switched off. The result was a revelation to me: no more strangely diffuse tunnel-vision soundstage. No more masking of detail, that was actually one of the main attractions of headphone listening.

Some recordings sound better crossfeed off (but they are rare). Many recordings have so "wide" stereo image, that crossfeeding is a must. If you get "tunnelvision" you are crossfeeding too much. The aim is to get over 100 % stereo to 100 % stereo. The closer you get the better.  Most recordings are over 100 % stereo, because if they where 100 % stereo they would sound narrow with loudspeakers due to acoustic crossfeeding.

I think your revelation was about having a "cool" change + the recording you where listening to while putting crossfeed of didn't contain strong spatial distortion.

On a sidenote, I did just realise that all my current favourite heapdhones have angled drivers. This probably goes a little way towards explaining why I have no problem hearing a coherent soundstage without cross-feed. The rest, I feel, is adaptation. Your brain learns to adapt to correctly process the sound information as relayed by headphones.

There is always adaptation, but removing spatial distortion is still wise. Otherwise we could adapt to the crappiest audio gear on the planet and be happy. 

So that is actual my main point from my first reaction: cross-feed may offer benefits to some people, but it's hardly essential for a pleasant listening experience.

To me crossfeed is a must. The years before I used crossfeeding were "wasted time" compared to what headphone listening is today to me. Science of human hearing also supports crossfeeding. All sounds we hear around us are always acoustically crossfeeded. Why should headphones make an exception? In my opinion people who prefer uncrossfed headphone sound are after special effects = spatial distortion rather than natural sound.

But this is precisely one the effects I don't like about cross-feed. It reduces the soundstage way too much in most implementations I've heard.

So the width of soundstage is everything? Anticrossfeeding would increase soundstage. I prefer natural sound that happens in width and deep enough "space". No need for miles width soundstage. Music halls are much narrorer than that, and no orchestra plays on our shoulders! They play far in front of us. Crossfeeding bends the soundstage closer to that. Uncrossfed sound is wide for sure, but its also "near". I don't understand who likes that.

What I tried to say is that feeding two different electrical signals into each other, causing some cancellation effect, is different from the cancellations you get through the interaction of the sound waves produced by two loudspeakers reproducing a stereo recording (next to room effects). At least, it's the only explanation I can think of for the significant reduction in sound quality I experience from cross-feed.

Some cancellation (also adding) happens in both cases but yes, there are differencies. With headphones you lack the acoustics of your room (and that should be a plus).

Thank you very much for your explanations and the schematics. I might just try and build it if I can find some time. Especially the prospect of being able to apply a mild cross-feed in a hardware implementation is something I would still like the experiment with.

Perhaps weak -10 dB crossfeed is your thing (you don't listen to King Crimson or other harsh stereo albums?). It's not like you must listen to everything crossfed. Recordings are different and therefor it's good the have a choice: off, weak, medium and strong... ...in my experience nearly all recordings benefit from crossfeeding. So, it's essential.

[Henk]

Moderators, please move this thread to the Diner. Thanks.