Communication: a vital essence of music

[Cato]

Imagine you are on an island X, where you cannot understand the natives.  You know that they are trying to communicate with you when they speak and use gestures, and you slowly begin to understand a wee bit of their patter, but you often have no idea what is happening.  It make take you months or years to comprehend everything...but now that you do know what they are saying, you do not like what they communicate.  (Let's say they are obsessed with gambling for the best parts of the seagulls and tortoises they slaughter, and many of their conversations deal with that.)

Imagine then that you swim over to a similar island, Y, and again you cannot understand a thing, but over time you do pick up the language, but this time you do like the conversations.  (These islanders are obsessed with baseball, blueberry yogurt, and Charlton Heston movies.)

Now imagine you swim over to a third island, Z, and are amazed that you understand the language almost immediately.  The conversations, however, are so bland or so arrogantly bombastic or about things you think unimportant, that you lose interest and shrug your shoulders at most of them.  (They are obsessed with cooking and real-estate shows!)

Finally, you swim over to a fourth island, A, where the language is similar to yours, but not quite the same.  The people speak in an idiosyncratic style, using forms and vocabulary in unexpected ways, and the topics of their conversations are also unusual and unexpected.  (They look like Yoda, and well, you know...)

Choose 4 composers who - for you -symbolize the experiences on the 4 islands.

[some guy]

Choose 4 composers who - for you -symbolize the experiences on the 4 islands.

Please don't.

[EigenUser]

Imagine you are on an island X, where you cannot understand the natives.  You know that they are trying to communicate with you when they speak and use gestures, and you slowly begin to understand a wee bit of their patter, but you often have no idea what is happening.  It make take you months or years to comprehend everything...but now that you do know what they are saying, you do not like what they communicate.  (Let's say they are obsessed with gambling for the best parts of the seagulls and tortoises they slaughter, and many of their conversations deal with that.)

Imagine then that you swim over to a similar island, Y, and again you cannot understand a thing, but over time you do pick up the language, but this time you do like the conversations.  (These islanders are obsessed with baseball, blueberry yogurt, and Charlton Heston movies.)

Now imagine you swim over to a third island, Z, and are amazed that you understand the language almost immediately.  The conversations, however, are so bland or so arrogantly bombastic or about things you think unimportant, that you lose interest and shrug your shoulders at most of them.  (They are obsessed with cooking and real-estate shows!)

Finally, you swim over to a fourth island, A, where the language is similar to yours, but not quite the same.  The people speak in an idiosyncratic style, using forms and vocabulary in unexpected ways, and the topics of their conversations are also unusual and unexpected.  (They look like Yoda, and well, you know...)

Choose 4 composers who - for you -symbolize the experiences on the 4 islands.

I like this! I'll think about it and try and report back.

Edit: Right now I can think of two --
Y = Ligeti
A = Bartok

This will be interesting to see other answers.

[Cato]

I like this! I'll think about it and try and report back.

Edit: Right now I can think of two --
Y = Ligeti
A = Bartok

This will be interesting to see other answers.

I suspect a good number of people have had similar experiences with those composers.

Nobody specifically was in my mind while I wrote the analogies.  But let me venture:

Z - Ferde Grofe

Y - Schoenberg

A - Scriabin, Hartmann

For X... still not really sure.  Stockhausen fits the bill now and then, but only now and then.   

[EigenUser]

I suspect a good number of people have had similar experiences with those composers.

Nobody specifically was in my mind while I wrote the analogies.  But let me venture:

Z - Ferde Grofe

Y - Schoenberg

A - Scriabin, Hartmann

For X... still not really sure.  Stockhausen fits the bill now and then, but only now and then.   

I actually was going to put Stockhausen for X, but I can't claim that I understand his music at all. I guess that I'm at the point where I don't understand a word of the language, but I'm seeing seagull and tortoise parts being traded. Thus, I can predict that while I don't understand what is being said, I don't think that it will be to my taste when I do eventually understand. But, I'll keep trying!

By the way, I do have a lot of respect for Stockhausen (a fascinating and influential person), so don't think that I'm comparing his music to dead seagull and tortoise guts!

[Cato]

I actually was going to put Stockhausen for X, but I can't claim that I understand his music at all. I guess that I'm at the point where I don't understand a word of the language, but I'm seeing seagull and tortoise parts being traded. Thus, I can predict that while I don't understand what is being said, I don't think that it will be to my taste when I do eventually understand. But, I'll keep trying!

By the way, I do have a lot of respect for Stockhausen (a fascinating and influential person), so don't think that I'm comparing his music to dead seagull and tortoise guts!

Right!  And at times, the music of Stockhausen is quite fine!   

Some people have worse comparisons for his music than the above!   0:)

[Ken B]

X - Webern

Y - Exactly my reaction to Philip Glass. I hated it at first, but felt a compulsion to hear it again. Over and over and over and over and ...  Until I loved it.

Z - This is the interesting one. Delius springs to mind. Amongst composers popular here ... Ravel. Increasingly, alas, Mahler whom I once loved and now find increasingly dull or bombastic. 

A - My first reaction to early music on period instruments probably.

[Ken B]

so don't think that I'm comparing his music to dead seagull and tortoise guts!

Of course not. That's the go-to comparison for Ligetti not Stockhausen.

[Cato]

A - My first reaction to early music on period instruments probably.

Which tangentially brings to mind...Gesualdo!

[Karl Henning]

I need to re-visit this book:

[asin]B005K69O2Y[/asin]

[EigenUser]

Of course not. That's the go-to comparison for Ligeti not Stockhausen.

Do you prefer Stockhausen over Ligeti? I'd be surprised if you did (you've mentioned that you don't care for serialism).

[Ken B]

Do you prefer Stockhausen over Ligeti? I'd be surprised if you did (you've mentioned that you don't care for serialism).

Not able to give an opinion, as I avoid Stockhausen. Stimmung was interesting. Interesting and good are different ideas. Have not heard anything else by him I liked, or even found interesting.
I liked some of Ligetti's piano music quite a bit. I am bored with the rest I have heard. I have The Ligetti Project and will -- who says I lack will power --hear it all eventually.
But mostly I was just making a joke.

[EigenUser]

Not able to give an opinion, as I avoid Stockhausen. Stimmung was interesting. Interesting and good are different ideas. Have not heard anything else by him I liked, or even found interesting.
I liked some of Ligetti's piano music quite a bit. I am bored with the rest I have heard. I have The Ligetti Project and will -- who says I lack will power --hear it all eventually.
But mostly I was just making a joke.

Oh, well in that case ... 

I can see why you'd relate to "Stimmung" before anything else he did since you like minimalism.

Have you heard the Ligeti etude "Fanfares" (No. 4)? That is such a fun piece to play (and the only one I'll probably ever be able to play ), though I anxiously wait for the day to come when I can play through it without screwing up toward the end. I enjoy jazz a lot (though I literally know nothing about it) and it has this very jazzy quality to it. Slow it down a little, dim the lights, and turn the music room into an exclusive NYC jazz club (by exclusive, I mean I'm the only one invited ). "Autumn in Warsaw" is pretty cool, too, though I literally can't make it past the 2nd measure of the piece. I should start a poll for favorite Ligeti etude, but I have a feeling that I'd be alone. 

[amw]

I think En Suspens might be my favourite but it's been a very long time since I heard any of them...

[Ken B]

Oh, well in that case ... 

I can see why you'd relate to "Stimmung" before anything else he did since you like minimalism.

Have you heard the Ligeti etude "Fanfares" (No. 4)? That is such a fun piece to play (and the only one I'll probably ever be able to play ), though I anxiously wait for the day to come when I can play through it without screwing up toward the end. I enjoy jazz a lot (though I literally know nothing about it) and it has this very jazzy quality to it. Slow it down a little, dim the lights, and turn the music room into an exclusive NYC jazz club (by exclusive, I mean I'm the only one invited ). "Autumn in Warsaw" is pretty cool, too, though I literally can't make it past the 2nd measure of the piece. I should start a poll for favorite Ligeti etude, but I have a feeling that I'd be alone. 

It's been a while but I recall liking the etudes, especially one of the layer ones, probably 13. I should dig my disc out -- or do the GMG thing and just buy another one!

[Madiel]

Y - Exactly my reaction to Philip Glass. I hated it at first, but felt a compulsion to hear it again. Over and over and over and over and ...  Until I loved it.

I don't know if Glass is X or Z for me, I just know he isn't Y.

[EigenUser]

It's been a while but I recall liking the etudes, especially one of the layer ones, probably 13. I should dig my disc out -- or do the GMG thing and just buy another one!

"Autumn in Warsaw" (No. 6) is a layered one. And, if you like "Autumn in Warsaw", you will like the third movement of his piano concerto. Trivially (left to the reader as an exercise), if you like something it cannot be boring. Also, the third movement of the piano concerto is a subset of the piano concerto. Therefore, if you like the layered etudes, then the piano concerto cannot possibly be boring. QED

There. Isn't math beautiful?

[Cato]

I don't know if Glass is X or Z for me, I just know he isn't Y.

X - Webern

Y - Exactly my reaction to Philip Glass. I hated it at first, but felt a compulsion to hear it again. Over and over and over and over and ...  Until I loved it.

Z - This is the interesting one. Delius springs to mind. Amongst composers popular here ... Ravel. Increasingly, alas, Mahler whom I once loved and now find increasingly dull or bombastic. 

A - My first reaction to early music on period instruments probably.

Glass: my first exposure to his version of Minimalism was the film score Koyaanisqatsi, and while it drove me super-nutzoid, I had to admit that it fit the images and theme of the movie.

I have tried several other things, but was not impressed.  However, his film score for The Illusionist I found most excellent!

For me he is therefore a quasi-Z.

Agreed about Delius, and as far as your former love-affair with Mahler is concerned: wait a few months or even years, and then go back.  You will be amazed!

(Well, maybe!     )

[Ken B]

Glass: my first exposure to his version of Minimalism was the film score Koyaanisqatsi, and while it drove me super-nutzoid, I had to admit that it fit the images and theme of the movie.

I have tried several other things, but was not impressed.  However, his film score for The Illusionist I found most excellent!

For me he is therefore a quasi-Z.

Agreed about Delius, and as far as your former love-affair with Mahler is concerned: wait a few months or even years, and then go back.  You will be amazed!

(Well, maybe!     )

Yeah, Mahler has made comebacks. Ups and downs. But it's a downward sloping roller coaster I fear.

[DavidW]

I read a quote from John Cage last night that I realized I agree with completely: "I could not accept the academic idea that the purpose of music was communication."

I don't even listen to music that way. Music to me is an experience.  Some music is rhetorical, but alot of music simply is not rhetorical.  And music that has a narrative can be appreciated without following the narrative.  And even when such a narrative exists, music is not trying to convey meaning in the way that spoken word does.  No matter how I look at it, I agree with you and Cage that the purpose of music is not communication.