Beethoven's Piano Sonatas

[marvinbrown]

Although Todd, on purpose, didn't include every incomplete set, I think at least one other pianist should be included. I'm hoping he won't mind if I revise his list:

Individual, idiosyncratic, even eccentric: Eric Heidsieck, Russell Sherman, Anton Kuerti, Georges Pludermacher, Glenn Gould.

Although the Appasionata is deliberately sabotaged by GG,

Sarge

    Glenn Gould deliberately sabotaged the Appasionata?? how so?   I have not heard Gould's recording and am interested in reading more about this!

  marvin

[George]

    Glenn Gould deliberately sabotaged the Appasionata?? how so?   I have not heard Gould's recording and am interested in reading more about this!

  marvin

http://www.amazon.com/Glenn-Gould-Reader-Tim-Page/dp/0679731350

[marvinbrown]

http://www.amazon.com/Glenn-Gould-Reader-Tim-Page/dp/0679731350

From the table of contents of that book on page 43 (edit: sorry page 51) he discusses the Appasionata.  I'll have to skim through that book at WH Smith or some other bookstore in London later this week to see what all the fuss is about!!

  marvin

[Sergeant Rock]

    Glenn Gould deliberately sabotaged the Appasionata?? how so?   I have not heard Gould's recording and am interested in reading more about this!

  marvin

Most noticeable is the very deliberate pacing of the first and second movements (so ponderous even I, who loves broad tempos, can become impatient on occasion) and the inversion of dynamics (playing soft where Beethoven marked forté and vice versa). In the slow movement he takes 11 minutes versus Gilels' six and half. It seems to go on forever.

He really hated this sonata. He thought it was egoistic and pompous; a failure not much better than Wellington's Victory. So he decided to play it as egocentrically as possible...in effect giving us in spades what he thought Beethoven meant by the work: total self-absorption.

I have to admit I love it   If you let yourself sink into it, forget preconceptions, forget how everyone else plays it, forget Beethoven basically, the music really works...which I'm sure Gould would have hated 

Sarge

[springrite]

At least GG did this only to some of Beethoven's sonatas, whereas he did this to ALL of Mozart's sonatas.

[Sergeant Rock]

I love GG's Hammerklavier.

I do too. It's a work Gould took seriously and he spent a lot of time on it. It's an amazing performance.

Sarge

[George]

From the table of contents of that book on page 43 (edit: sorry page 51) he discusses the Appasionata.  I'll have to skim through that book at WH Smith or some other bookstore in London later this week to see what all the fuss is about!!

  marvin

Yeah, if I was more than a three fingered typer, I'd post it for you.

[marvinbrown]

Most noticeable is the very deliberate pacing of the first and second movements (so ponderous even I, who loves broad tempos, can become impatient on occasion) and the inversion of dynamics (playing soft where Beethoven marked forté and vice versa).

Sarge

Aghh   that's a blasphemy in and of itself.  Beethoven's greatest innovation (ushering in the Romantic movement in music) is to be found in his revoltionary style:  loud one moment, soft the next, very loud in another moment then very soft the next and so on!  Failure to follow his instructions is grounds for immediate dismissal and outrage.  GG should be ashamed of himself!

 marvin

[marvinbrown]

Yeah, if I was more than a three fingered typer, I'd post it for you.

don't worry about it George I'll find a copy of that book later this week  .

  marvin

[Sergeant Rock]

GG should be ashamed of himself!

  marvin

He wasn't. He thought Beethoven should be ashamed of himself...but that's our Glenn 

Sarge

[Gurn Blanston]

He wasn't. He thought Beethoven should be ashamed of himself...but that's our Glenn 

Sarge

Your Glenn, not mine. I'll share Beethoven with you though.



----------------
Listening to:
Haydn - London Sonatas - Ronald Brautigam - Hob 16 50 Sonata #60 in C for Fortepiano 1st mvmt - Allegro

[George]

Your Glenn, not mine. I'll share Beethoven with you though.

[marvinbrown]

At least GG did this only to some of Beethoven's sonatas, whereas he did this to ALL of Mozart's sonatas.

WHAT THE $£%$!!  He even sabotaged Mozart's sonatas  !!  What is wrong with this guy??  First he records Bach's Goldberg Variations on piano  (harpsichord anyone??)  then he mutilates Beethoven's and Mozart's sonatas intentionally  and SHAMELESSLY!! Why do they allow this guy to record keyboard masterpieces if his heart and good intentions aren't into it??  I know, I know stop your questions Marvin and go read the book in George's link  !

  marvin

[Sergeant Rock]

WHAT THE $£%$!!  He even sabotaged Mozart's sonatas  !!  What is wrong with this guy??  First he records Bach's Goldberg Variations on piano  (harpsichord anyone??)  then he mutilates Beethoven's and Mozart's sonatas intentionally  and SHAMELESSLY!! Why do they allow this guy to record keyboard masterpieces if his heart and good intentions aren't into it??  I know, I know stop your questions Marvin and go read the book in George's link  !

  marvin

Any decent pianist can play the notes Mozart wrote...it takes a real master to mess them up as ingeniously as Gould did 

Sarge

[PerfectWagnerite]

WHAT THE $£%$!!  He even sabotaged Mozart's sonatas  !!  What is wrong with this guy??  First he records Bach's Goldberg Variations on piano  (harpsichord anyone??)  then he mutilates Beethoven's and Mozart's sonatas intentionally  and SHAMELESSLY!! Why do they allow this guy to record keyboard masterpieces if his heart and good intentions aren't into it??  I know, I know stop your questions Marvin and go read the book in George's link  !

  marvin

You want to know why? Because

1)GG does not care about Beethoven or Mozart

2)GG cars about GG and nothing and nobody else. Everything HAS to be about him, whether it's Bach or Beethoven or Brahms. He is the antithesis of someone like Claude Frank or Andras Schiff where the music comes first with no fanfare or pretense. With GG there has to be a headline with every performance and recording. He NEEDS to hear the "oohs" and "ahhs" and the audience going: wow GG did this and that.

Frankly I am tired of his antics. His big box set is extremely unenjoyable and I am giving it away to a co-worker instead. She is a big GG fan so maybe she'll put up with him.

[Sergeant Rock]

Why do they allow this guy to record keyboard masterpieces if his heart and good intentions aren't into it??

Some things he recorded because his record company insisted on it (like an album of the famous "named" Beethoven sonatas which produced that distorted Appassionata but a very good, and very fresh and invigorating Moonlight in a proper Classical style). Other things he recorded simply because he wanted to show his contempt for the music. The Mozart cycle is really complicated. I can't quite figure Gould out here. He always claimed he hated Mozart, especially the later sonatas (he tended to prefer the early music of many composers). So why record them all? Why not just the few he liked? A puzzle. (By the way, I like his Mozart; he gives many of the sonatas a Baroque feel which, if not really correct, is always interesting).

Bach was usually peformed on piano in the Fifties so Gould wasn't really breaking any taboos there. And to this day, many of us (myself included) prefer the piano to any other keyboard used in Bach.

But your main question has a simple answer, Marvin: Why was he allowed to record? Because he was a genius of the keyboard and one of the most fascinating musical figures of the century. I like him for another reason: his repertoire wasn't the usual Chopin, Schumann, Liszt but ranged far and wide: Strauss, Schoenberg, Valen, Sibelius, Hindemith, Haydn, Byrd, Gibbons...Wagner! He made brilliant piano versions of the Meistersinger Oveture, the Rhine Journey, the Siegfried Idyll...he loved Wagner. His conducting debut and, as it turned out, his final recording was the Siegfried Idyll with the Toronto SO.

Sarge

[The new erato]

2)GG cars about GG and nothing and nobody else. Everything HAS to be about him,

Wow. Reminds me of the last biography of Wagner that I read.

[marvinbrown]

Some things he recorded because his record company insisted on it (like an album of the famous "named" Beethoven sonatas which produced that distorted Appassionata but a very good, and very fresh and invigorating Moonlight in a proper Classical style). Other things he recorded simply because he wanted to show his contempt for the music. The Mozart cycle is really complicated. I can't quite figure Gould out here. He always claimed he hated Mozart, especially the later sonatas (he tended to prefer the early music of many composers). So why record them all? Why not just the few he liked? A puzzle. (By the way, I like his Mozart; he gives many of the sonatas a Baroque feel which, if not really correct, is always interesting).

Bach was usually peformed on piano in the Fifties so Gould wasn't really breaking any taboos there. And to this day, many of us (myself included) prefer the piano to any other keyboard used in Bach.

But your main question has a simple answer, Marvin: Why was he allowed to record? Because he was a genius of the keyboard and one of the most fascinating musical figures of the century. I like him for another reason: his repertoire wasn't the usual Chopin, Schumann, Liszt but ranged far and wide: Strauss, Schoenberg, Valen, Sibelius, Hindemith, Haydn, Byrd, Gibbons...Wagner! He made brilliant piano versions of the Meistersinger Oveture, the Rhine Journey, the Siegfried Idyll...he loved Wagner. His conducting debut and, as it turned out, his final recording was the Siegfried Idyll with the Toronto SO.

Sarge

PW, Sarge thanks for your responses.  I do not have a single recording of Gould's and up and until your posts I had no idea he was such a....oh what's the expression I am looking for " Prima Donna".  For some reason piano performers tend to be far more eccentric than one would think.  I have been going through the liner notes of my Gulda set of Beethoven's piano sonata and the last paragraph reads as follows:

 "Gulda liked to stir even outside music.  In 1999 he uncannily announced his own death and disappeared for a few days. Only to reappear later on and have a Resurrection-Party"

 Thankfully his approach to Beethoven's piano sonatas is more.....sensible.

 marvin

[Don]

PW, Sarge thanks for your responses.  I do not have a single recording of Gould's and up and until your posts I had no idea he was such a....oh what's the expression I am looking for " Prima Donna".  
 marvin

No Gould?  If nothing else, you need to acquire Gould's Bach - there's nothing like it.

[DavidRoss]

No Gould?  If nothing else, you need to acquire Gould's Bach - there's nothing like it.

Seconded.