Beethoven's Piano Sonatas

[Todd]

Andre De Groote - never heard of this performer...any comments?

Not bad: http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,15357.msg376026.html#msg376026.

[Clever Hans]

Charles Rosen's Hammerklavier. Proper tempo.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=85AMx6OD87A

[Mandryka]

Charles Rosen's Hammerklavier.

He recorded it 3 times. 

I believe that Glen Gould was so impressed by the first that he refused to record the sonata for his Beethoven survey -- he said that he couldn't do better than Rosen. Later on he changed his mind of course.

Does anyone else know this story? I'm sure I read it somewhere but I don't know where. It may be a figment of my imagination.

Proper tempo.

You mean that it's the tempo Beethoven indicated, or that you like it at that tempo?

[Holden]

I fear I have little to contribute to the Hammerklavier discussion. I have a hard time saying that I even understand, let alone appreciate, the 106. I've always been less impressed than most folks by Solomon's, and I know that the critics have loved it for decades (however, I am a true Solomon fan and I do love his earlier Beethoven sonatas...his Waldstein knocks most other pianists in the dust...so I can hardly concur with your "bit bloodless...in this as in everything" comment). The first pianist to make this sonata even sort of coherent for me was Egon Petri: I have a Columbia Special Products LP and a downloaded transfer of a later Westminster LP, plus I believe there are some live performances floating around. I've paid enough attention to Gilels' versions to know that I prefer his earlier Melodiya. Years ago, I was quite impressed upon first hearing Pollini's DGG and still have the LP set in my collection. And more recently, I too have enjoy listening to Levy. But I also have plenty of other doing the work (including two or more renditions by Richter...so why am I not recalling and gushing over one of his, I ask myself?). Apparently, I am in dire need of an op.106 spin-off session.

Dirk

G'day Dirk. For me Op 106 is the most enigmatic of the LvB sonatas. My first recording of it was actually Solomon on a World Record Club LP which I bought for his accompanying recording of the Pathetigue. Op 13 was what I wanted to listen to and the HK was put on the back burner. I only returned to it when I purchased the Barenboim recording (also on LP) but it was not initially DB who brought it to life for me. I'd had the privilege of hearing Brendel perform this live and I was just blown away. I went out and bought the DB (as Brendel wasn't available) and just loved Barenboim's Adagio.

Since then I've heard many recordings of Op 106. When I returned to Solomon (on CD) I auditioned it at my local record store. I started the audition with the adagio and knew that if I liked the opening two movements I had a winner. The adagio is one of the greatest slow movements ever written for piano IMO. Solomon is somewhat austere in I, playful in II but out of this world in III. The other III that grabbed me when I first heard it was Sokolov's.

III is in my own repertoire and I don't know how the top pianists make it work. It is so long so you have to maintain the tension throughout its entirety. I enjoy playing it but I suspect that if I made a recording of myself I would be very disappointed.

If I had to recommend a recording at this point in time it would be Sokolov.

Do you have Sokolov?

[mc ukrneal]

G'day Dirk. For me Op 106 is the most enigmatic of the LvB sonatas. My first recording of it was actually Solomon on a World Record Club LP which I bought for his accompanying recording of the Pathetigue. Op 13 was what I wanted to listen to and the HK was put on the back burner. I only returned to it when I purchased the Barenboim recording (also on LP) but it was not initially DB who brought it to life for me. I'd had the privilege of hearing Brendel perform this live and I was just blown away. I went out and bought the DB (as Brendel wasn't available) and just loved Barenboim's Adagio.

Since then I've heard many recordings of Op 106. When I returned to Solomon (on CD) I auditioned it at my local record store. I started the audition with the adagio and knew that if I liked the opening two movements I had a winner. The adagio is one of the greatest slow movements ever written for piano IMO. Solomon is somewhat austere in I, playful in II but out of this world in III. The other III that grabbed me when I first heard it was Sokolov's.

III is in my own repertoire and I don't know how the top pianists make it work. It is so long so you have to maintain the tension throughout its entirety. I enjoy playing it but I suspect that if I made a recording of myself I would be very disappointed.

If I had to recommend a recording at this point in time it would be Sokolov.

Do you have Sokolov?

Have you heard the Eschenbach on EMI (with 29-32)? He has one of the slowest Adagios I've ever heard (at just over 25 minutes).

[Clever Hans]

You mean that it's the tempo Beethoven indicated, or that you like it at that tempo?

The youtube video matches the CBS/Sony recording I have, from the set of late sonatas.

I like the tempo because it's an allegro, and closer to what Beethoven indicated, 138 on the half note. Solomon is similar. Gulda and Pollini are even closer. Schnabel comes the closest, at like 136, but makes mistakes.

Unfortunately, Richter, Levy, Gilels, Kempff, etc, for all their other virtues, IMO do the exact wrong thing here and change the feel of the movement to grandness.

[zamyrabyrd]

What do y'all think of Op. 110? I don't think I have ever sat down and played that piece to any degree of satisfaction. Here are some of the problems: the extreme range of the first movement, the "Scherzo" in 2 that a teacher said was from a drinking song, how to relate the recitatives to the mournful slow part(s) (partially borrowed from Bach), also NEVER got a right tempo for that, the fugue (not a conventional one for sure) and relating all of the above in the culmination at the end.

Actually, I like the inversion of the fugue in G major, this is the only part that sort of clicked.  I didn't find at least for myself the definitive performance yet.

ZB

[George]

What do y'all think of Op. 110?

It's my favorite Beethoven sonata. My favorite performance of it is Serkin's 1960 recording.

[Clever Hans]

It's my favorite Beethoven sonata. My favorite performance of it is Serkin's 1960 recording.

That's on unreleased studio recordings, correct? I must pick that up, but I keep putting it off because I only really want that recording.

[George]

That's on unreleased studio recordings, correct? I must pick that up, but I keep putting it off because I only really want that recording.

Yes, it is.

[SonicMan46]

Not bad: http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,15357.msg376026.html#msg376026.

Todd - thanks for the link - I assumed that you had heard this set and should have done a search!   

[Martin Lind]

I have heard Schnabel, several times. Awfull sound of course, but interesting and intriguing. Then several performances in the Sony Beethoven box, a cycle, but with differant piano players. Then the Gulda cycle. Not my cup of tea. Some Gilels and Richter. Fine. Serkin for the last piano sonatas. Haven't heard that for a very long time.

In the last weeks I bought the very affordable Brendel box from Brilliant, with Brendels early recordings for Vanguard, Vox and Tournabot. An interesting set and I think these perfomances of the piano sonatas ( 1962 - 1964) are very fine and I enjoy that alot. I don't wether this is the "best" set but these recordings are deeply satisfieing.

Regards
Martin

[Mandryka]

So many Op 110s.

There's a recording by Edwin Fischer which is somehow very fine -- and the piano he uses sounds very beautiful.

Actually a couple of days ago I played Gould's -- the live one from Stockholm -- and I was extremely impressed. He's so "musicical", Gould --  in that Stoclholm concert he totally draws me in, convinces me.

I haven't compared it to the studio one.

Also Arrau's EMI is very special for me.

[canninator]

The Annie Fischer set is kind of pricey so I thought I would buy a Gulda set but there seems to be a few around so I was looking for some clarification.

There is the set on Brilliant


Then there is a set on Decca


and this one also


Finally, the amadeo set appears to be pretty cheap on amazon.de


Are these all different versions of the same thing? Are some better remasters than others.

Links are here

Amadeo
http://www.amazon.de/Klaviersonaten-1-32-Gesamtaufnahme-Friedrich-Gulda/dp/B000025NV8/ref=sr_1_4?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1288869860&sr=1-4

Brilliant
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Beethoven-Sonatas-Complete-Ludwig-van/dp/B000B8WEL4/ref=pd_sim_sbs_m_h__1

Decca sets
http://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-Piano-Sonata-Concerto-Box/dp/B000BQV52A/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1288870323&sr=8-1-catcorr
http://www.amazon.co.uk/GULDA-PLAYS-BEETHOVEN-CONCERTOS-1968-1973/dp/B00004SA9B/ref=sr_1_1?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1288870417&sr=1-1

Any guidance here greatly appreciated.

[George]

I think they might be the same thing, but I know for sure that the first two and the last one are all the same performance, just with different mastering.

[mc ukrneal]

I think they might be the same thing, but I know for sure that the first two and the last one are all the same performance, just with different mastering.

Those are all the same. The most recent release (from 1953-54), on Orfeo, came out just this year. The third set is on Decca from the 50's.

[canninator]

Those are all the same. The most recent release (from 1953-54), on Orfeo, came out just this year. The third set is on Decca from the 50's.

I thought the brilliant set was the '67 cycle remastered from the amadeo? That would make sense if the amadeo is so cheap as it apparently has reverb added. Then the other two sets are the 50's cycle.

[George]

Those are all the same. The most recent release (from 1953-54), on Orfeo, came out just this year. The third set is on Decca from the 50's.

OK, thanks. It's worth noting that the Orfeo was his first set of the sonatas, with the Amadeo/Brilliant being his third. The second one was on Original Masters Decca.

I agree with Todd that the Amadeo/Brilliant is his best set. Luckily, it is also the cheapest and the easiest to find.

[George]

I thought the brilliant set was the '67 cycle remastered from the amadeo?

Those two are different masterings of the same performances.

That would make sense if the amadeo is so cheap as it apparently has reverb added. Then the other two sets are the 50's cycle.

No, the other two are the same performances, just reissued and likely remastered.

[mc ukrneal]

I thought the brilliant set was the '67 cycle remastered from the amadeo? That would make sense if the amadeo is so cheap as it apparently has reverb added. Then the other two sets are the 50's cycle.

It is confusing. Why that one set has been licensed and re-licensed, I don't know. All four that you posted though, these are all the same recording.

The two I was referring to were these:


And here is a link you may find useful (by our very own Jens - maybe he knows the history better than I do): http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2009/June09/Beethoven_piano_cycles2.htm