Beethoven's Piano Sonatas

[Todd]

We need more niche scholars

I am a collector, but most definitely not a scholar.  Any old person can collect and collate data.

[hopefullytrusting]

Any old person can collect and collate data.

But you did,

[Todd]

Dammit, now I want to watch a Die Hard movie. 

[George]

I want to say that I find it a shame that this thread has been repeatedly allowed to devolve into pages of personal arguments that have nothing to do with the thread topic. I have tried to be patient with this situation, but it continues to bubble back up. And as it has already been said, the complainers about the problem have become a much larger problem.

In my my mind, this is awfully simple. I click on a thread for Beethoven sonatas and I discuss Beethoven sonatas. If I want to discuss something else, I can discuss it elsewhere. That way, years from now, when some new classical music fan joins and is looking for recommendations, they won't have to wade through pages of off topic posts, assuming they are that patient.

Over at RMCR, there were a ton of knowledgeable people with useful things to say, but like this thread, over there the discussion quickly would go off topic and I'd have to filter through all of the off topic stuff to get to the on topic discussion. The difference at RMCR is that there was no moderation.

Now, I don't say this to point a finger, but to simply point out the limitations a thread starter has on a moderated board. I have no authority to warn members, delete posts, etc. I point this out to state my frustration on this matter. Going forward, I will use PM for suggestions/discussions on Beethoven piano sonatas and I have unsubscribed from this thread.           

[springrite]

It is interesting seeing the evolvement of Todd's "rankings". We (at least those of us old enough) all have had that experience of really loving a particular recording, which became bland after a few listening, while another recording never sounded special until one day it just suddenly clicked and bowled you over.

[Brian]

I want to say that I find it a shame that this thread has been repeatedly allowed to devolve into pages of personal arguments that have nothing to do with the thread topic. I have tried to be patient with this situation, but it continues to bubble back up. And as it has already been said, the complainers about the problem have become a much larger problem.

In my my mind, this is awfully simple. I click on a thread for Beethoven sonatas and I discuss Beethoven sonatas. If I want to discuss something else, I can discuss it elsewhere. That way, years from now, when some new classical music fan joins and is looking for recommendations, they won't have to wade through pages of off topic posts, assuming they are that patient.

Over at RMCR, there were a ton of knowledgeable people with useful things to say, but like this thread, over there the discussion quickly would go off topic and I'd have to filter through all of the off topic stuff to get to the on topic discussion. The difference at RMCR is that there was no moderation.

Now, I don't say this to point a finger, but to simply point out the limitations a thread starter has on a moderated board. I have no authority to warn members, delete posts, etc. I point this out to state my frustration on this matter. Going forward, I will use PM for suggestions/discussions on Beethoven piano sonatas and I have unsubscribed from this thread.           

George,

I apologize for the way we've allowed this to get out of hand. In August, after the first stupid and pointless off-topic ramblings, I resolved to wait a few days until people forgot, then go back and delete (not split to The Diner) all of it. Then I got busy and went on vacation and didn't do it. Now it has flared up again, but even stupider.

I should note that there is a report button on every post. Somewhat amazingly, nobody has reported anything in this thread. Ritter, Mapman, and I are all employed full-time and we appreciate reports! It is helpful to us!

Obviously I don't question or challenge your decision to unsubscribe and go private. And I completely understand your frustration as we let this continue boiling along. However, to start rebuilding, I have deleted 54 (fifty-four) posts from the previous pages. Including at least one of my own and two of Ritter's. The purpose is not to punish the posters but to restore the thread so that people will enjoy it as a resource.

In addition to deleting 54 posts, I make the following observations to the general readership:

- We will now actively delete on sight posts that are wildly off topic, including posts that (a) insult others, (b) complain of a baseless personal dislike for the on-topic posts of others, (c) complain about the first two kinds of posts without reporting them.
- We will especially delete posts complaining that somebody posts on topic too much. I find this ridiculous and embarrassing. A lengthy, thoughtful, time-consuming on topic post is very obviously a good thing and anyone caught complaining about it will be sentenced to write 1000 word reports on Karl Jenkins.
- The forum has an ignore function, and in the event that it does not work with 100% satisfaction, the individual human brain also has an ignore function.
- I've removed three or four personal insults across the forum this week. I have warned only one person but my patience is at an end and the temporary ban feature will be next.

[Atriod]

Backhaus is who convinced me that there was something beyond the piano and the pianist that seemed to be affecting the music. I don't know how he got the piano to sound like it did, but only he has been able to do it, at least in regards to this particular piano sonata of Beethoven. Like Arrau, a "similar-ish" pianist, does well, but it is different - more cold, more distant, at least in my opinion, but I'll stop there lest I bring the wrath of the audiophiles on us all, lol.

Arrau is about the polar opposite of cold, his warmth of tone combined (with generally) broader tempi add to this. The second best disc of Liszt's religious music comes from Arrau, though sadly incomplete, both of the best performances I've heard of these are incomplete.

I agree with you on Backhaus, one of my favorite pianists as well. There is an Orfeo disc of him playing selections from WTC and I have never heard any other pianist play them like that. In general I prefer all his live Beethoven piano sonatas to either studio cycle. I will be buried with this Complete Decca mega box. In the early 90s the Japanese released a partial Decca mega box of his in a wood crate (!), I have FLAC rips of these and doing some comparisons using fooabx with the new mega box I could not pass a blind test, it sounded like the new mega box was just transferred flat; Backhaus's upper register tone came through just as clearly as the early 90s Japan set as neither used noise reduction (same mastering as the early 90s box set of his Beethoven Decca mono cycle).

BTW for Op. 109 I had an exchange with Jed Distler when I was a subscriber to Classicstoday, in his ideal list of Beethoven Piano Sonatas he had this recording, indeed phenomenal.

As for me, I never quite understood all the fuss about Lisitsa, long before she discovered the promotional value of dabbling in politics. I recall that, ages ago, I rather liked some of Gergiev's recordings, though I couldn't say now which ones exactly. Perhaps Cavalleria Rusticana with Norman? But, in much the same way, I found myself disappointed in him as a conductor well before Mr Putin began parading him about for his own little spectacles.

Backhaus, on the other hand, I have always admired, and my admiration has only deepened with time.

Lisitsa'a best recordings were before her Youtube fame. She has a recording of Prokofiev Piano Sonata 7 that is just as good as either of Richter's or Gavrilov. Seeing the discussion of morally defunct musicians on the following page, I can understand why one wouldn't want to support her. The label is defunct and she'd see none of that money.

While we are at op. 109 I would like to mention Sunwook Kim - a young South Korean pianist:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1g-TOeWQ7Y8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wvRUJXX9T3o

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7_hGybwsONk

which I came across because I purchased his CD with the three last of LvB's sonatas. His playing is crystal clear like Pollini's but also very beautiful and poetic. Despite his superb piano technique, there is nothing boastful about his playing, on the contrary, he exhibit great humility towards the music.

Your thoughts on Pollini's old vs new Op. 109?

[prémont]

BTW for Op. 109 I had an exchange with Jed Distler when I was a subscriber to Classicstoday, in his ideal list of Beethoven Piano Sonatas he had this recording, indeed phenomenal.

I have had this on my radar already and am not far from a purchase.

Your thoughts on Pollini's old vs new Op. 109?

Unfortunately Pollini's complete LvB sonata set , which I have, contains the old recording of the late sonatas, and I have not heard his new recordings of these sonatas. However you prompt me to purchase these (two) too.. 

[Todd]

Somehow or another, I missed the fact that Yukio Yokoyama recorded a second complete cycle.  Sigh.

[prémont]

Somehow or another, I missed the fact that Yukio Yokoyama recorded a second complete cycle.  Sigh.

I think I shall pass it by.

1. It's surely expensive and difficult to get hold of.
2. It's apparently neither CD nor lossless download.
3. His first cycle wasn't that remarcable.

[Todd]

1. It's surely expensive and difficult to get hold of.

It is expensive, but eBay is very easy to use.

[Todd]

For shits and giggles, I asked Grok to prepare a list of ongoing sonata cycles.  Below is the dumpster fire of a result.  I provided a list of surnames to consider and it still got it wrong.  The Endres (should be Alfredo Perl) bit is particularly egregious, with the Winkelmann and Michielon and Anka (should be Daniel Heide) outputs not far behind.  And Grok is the best of the public AI tool I use.  It still referred to Homna's cycle as the most recently released complete cycle, as well.

Of course, AI botches all manner of things, partly because of sourcing, which I know to often be wrong on subjects I have detailed or first-hand information about.  My favorite example of total data failure, on an admittedly obscure subject, was when I was assured by an interwebs thinking machine that a national historic site in Washington state was still around even though it was demolished over a decade ago. 


AI slop & hallucinations:
1. Yukie Sakiya (likely Akihiro Sakiya, per discographic records) Akihiro Sakiya (b. 1975), a Japanese pianist and winner of the 2002 Sendai International Music Competition, has recorded the complete Beethoven sonata cycle once, released on DPIC Entertainment (Japan, 2010s). This multi-volume set emphasizes structural elegance and lyrical sensitivity, influenced by his studies with Pavel Gililov and Dmitri Bashkirov at Cologne's Hochschule für Musik. Sakiya's interpretations highlight Beethoven's dramatic contrasts, with particular acclaim for the late sonatas (e.g., Op. 111's transcendent Arietta). The cycle, primarily for the Japanese market, is available digitally via Japanese platforms like mora.jp; streaming excerpts on YouTube showcase his poised Appassionata (Op. 57).

2. Carlo Alfredo Cabassi Italian pianist Carlo Alfredo Cabassi (b. 1972), a prizewinner at the 2001 Cleveland International Piano Competition, has recorded the complete Beethoven sonata cycle once, issued on Decca Italia (2016, 8-CD set). Recorded in Milan, this cycle is praised for its intellectual rigor and emotional restraint, blending classical poise with subtle romantic inflection—often compared to Pollini's clarity but warmer. Cabassi groups sonatas thematically (e.g., early Opp. 2–7 in Vol. 1), excelling in middle-period works like the Pastoral (Op. 28). The set won Italy's 2017 Premio Abbiati; available on Presto Music and Spotify, with live videos of Op. 106 (Hammerklavier) on YouTube.

3. Leonardo Michielon Venetian-born Leonardo Michielon (b. 1975), a laureate of the 1998 William Kapell Competition, has not recorded a complete cycle but has issued extensive partial volumes on the Steinway & Sons label (2010s–2020s), covering over 20 sonatas. His Beethoven project emphasizes fortepiano-informed phrasing on modern instruments, with notable releases like Nos. 8 (Pathétique, Op. 13), 14 (Moonlight, Op. 27/2), and 29 (Hammerklavier, Op. 106) in a 2022 album. Michielon's live cycles (e.g., 2023 Venice recital series) are unrecorded, but his interpretations highlight historical authenticity and dynamic vitality. Streaming on Spotify; no full cycle announced.

4. Alessandro Paciariello Alessandro Paciariello (b. 1996), the youngest winner of the 2021 Cleveland International Piano Competition at age 24, has not yet recorded a complete cycle. His Beethoven engagements focus on live performances and partial studio takes, including a 2023 DG debut album with Nos. 14 (Moonlight), 21 (Waldstein, Op. 53), and 23 (Appassionata)—acclaimed for youthful fire and technical brilliance. Paciariello's full-cycle recitals (e.g., 2024–25 European tour) suggest a recording project may follow, but none is confirmed. Excerpts available on DG's YouTube channel.

5. Federico Mastroprimiano Italian pianist Federico Mastroprimiano (b. 1984), known for his chamber work with the Mastroprimiano Trio, has not completed a sonata cycle. His Beethoven discography includes partial recordings on Brilliant Classics (2010s), such as Nos. 1–3 (Opp. 2) and selections from Opp. 10–13. Mastroprimiano's style favors intimate, textually faithful readings, often in duo contexts (e.g., violin sonatas with Federico Leo). No full cycle exists; his 2022 live performance of Opp. 7–10 at Italy's Accademia Filarmonica is archived online but unreleased commercially.

6. Andreas Winkelmann German pianist Andreas Winkelmann (b. 1963) has recorded the complete Beethoven sonata cycle once, released on the Dabringhaus und Grimm (MDG) label (2000–2005, 10-CD set). This SACD-hybrid production, recorded in Berlin's Jesus-Christus-Kirche, is lauded for its crystalline acoustics and Winkelmann's analytical yet passionate approach—emphasizing Beethoven's formal innovations with a modern German precision akin to Brendel's. Standouts include the early sonatas' Haydnesque wit and Op. 111's philosophical depth. Available on MDG's site and Amazon; high-res streaming on Qobuz.

7. Michael Endres (and "Perl" clarification) Swiss pianist Michael Endres (b. 1956) has recorded the complete Beethoven sonata cycle once, on Hacktone (1990s, reissued 2010s, 8-CD set). Endres's traversal, taped in Zurich, balances intellectual clarity with poetic warmth, drawing from his studies with Herbert Dreier and György Cziffra. Critics highlight his unmannered phrasing in the late sonatas (e.g., Op. 109's songful Andante). The "Perl" likely refers to separate listings for Alfred Brendel or András Schiff in surveys, but Endres's cycle stands alone. Available on hacktone.com and Spotify.(Note: If "Perl" intends a distinct artist like a misspelling of "Perlea" or another, no matching Beethoven cycle exists; clarify for further search.)

8. Yukie Ito Japanese pianist Yukie Ito (b. 1980s), a laureate of the 2006 Hamamatsu International Piano Competition, has not recorded a complete cycle. Her Beethoven output includes partial albums on the Triton label (2010s), featuring Nos. 8 (Pathétique), 14 (Moonlight), and 23 (Appassionata)—noted for delicate touch and emotional nuance. Ito's live full-cycle performances (e.g., 2019 Tokyo series) remain unrecorded. Streaming selections on Apple Music; potential for a future project given her Beethoven focus.

9. Anke (likely Anke Hörner or Hörner-Heide) German duo Anke Hörner and Ulrike-Anima Mathé (often performing as Hörner-Heide in surveys) specialize in four-hand arrangements, including a complete Beethoven sonata cycle transcribed for piano duo (MDG, 1990s–2000s, 7-CD set). This unique project transforms the solo sonatas into duo format, preserving Beethoven's architecture while adding dialogic interplay—ideal for exploring contrapuntal layers (e.g., Op. 106's fugue). Not a traditional solo cycle, but a scholarly innovation. Available on MDG; solo efforts by Hörner include partial sonatas on Capriccio.

[Brian]

The funniest part of this is to imagine Michael Endres getting his performing style from studies with Cziffra.