Beethoven's Piano Sonatas

[Todd]

I admire the fact that Pollini uses that technique to perform a piece with clarity and with uncompromising adherence to what he regards as the intent of the composer.

That is unquestionably what makes Pollini's best recordings so special.  His 70s recordings of just about everything are among the best.  (Has anyone surpassed, or can anyone surpass, his Wanderer Fantasie, for instance?)  All they way up until about a decade ago, he routinely put out top notch stuff, and since he has still put out some good discs (his Bach, say), but I cannot avoid saying that he is past his prime. 

While my opinion matters not a whit to Mr Pollini - nor should it - I don't want to see him end up releasing recordings like Richter's late LvB on Philips, where the lapses and errors and lack of depth are so pronounced.  He's not there yet, but it's not 1977, either.

[Mandryka]

In the case of one of them, op 22, we have the 1997 record to compare with the new one. The latter seems much more edgy throughout, even in the adagio. He's making a statment by putting out his latest thoughts about op22. He's inviting comparison. 

Anyway, I do find the later recording has a force of nature like quality, the big outburst in the adagio of the 1997 is a pussy cat compared to the 2013, which is more like a roaring tiger, an earthquake, or something.

The 1997 is probably better by piano teachers' standards, all due respect to piano teachers. Some concert goers will prefer the 1997 I expect, because it's less intrusive, an easier, lighter,  less challenging, more sensual, more beautiful listen. Fair enough?

I find the earlier one a bit dull, the latter one bold and exciting, and I'm interested that he's decided to do this.

[Mandryka]

Richter's late LvB on Philips, where the lapses and errors and lack of depth are so pronounced.  He's not there yet, but it's not 1977, either.

Maybe you could say a bit more about the lack of depth there.

[Todd]

The 1997 is probably better by piano teachers standards, all due respect to piano teachers. Some concert goers will prefer the 1997 I expect, because it's less intrusive, an easier, lighter,  less challenging, more sensual, more beautiful listen. Fair enough?

An intense Op 22 seems to miss the point.  Still, it's better than the pulverizing Op 7.  What a contrast Kempff '61 offered when I listened to it a couple days later.  Certainly, his technique doesn't match Pollini's, but the music sounds better.  (I'm only about a third of the way through the Kempff right now.)

[Todd]

Maybe you could say a bit more about the lack of depth there.

It's been a while since I last listened, but in addition to the slips, Richter often doesn't seem to be his usual transcendent self.  Some of the playing seems, well, rudderless.  I just get the sense of a pianist just playing the notes as he remembers them.  There are still some great moments, but end of career Richter was not very good.  I wonder if he approved the release, and if so, why.

[Mandryka]

An intense Op 22 seems to miss the point.  Still, it's better than the pulverizing Op 7.  What a contrast Kempff '61 offered when I listened to it a couple days later.  Certainly, his technique doesn't match Pollini's, but the music sounds better.  (I'm only about a third of the way through the Kempff right now.)

I had a similar experience with the Kempff. I still haven't gone back to Pommier - which you put me on to in fact, so thank you.

Anyway, I always like the idea of a pianist doing something like this, something which defies expectations about how to play the music. That's one of the great stimulating things about collecting different versions - you can ask yourself, "why the hell has he done that?"

[Mandryka]

It's been a while since I last listened, but in addition to the slips, Richter often doesn't seem to be his usual transcendent self.  Some of the playing seems, well, rudderless.  I just get the sense of a pianist just playing the notes as he remembers them.  There are still some great moments, but end of career Richter was not very good.  I wonder if he approved the release, and if so, why.

It's ages since I listened too, but I remember being really impressed by op110. He's not as virtuosic as in Leipzig, but there's sense of him being determined to get to the very bottom of the music, a sense of probing. I may not feel the same now of course.

[Todd]

I still haven't gone back to Pommier

I'll have to revisit that again soon.  I haven't listened to his cycle in a while, but his Op 22 is something.  For whatever reason, French pianists seem to excel in this work, right down to today.  I eagerly await Bavouzet in this work.

[Oldnslow]

Well, I saw Pollini live at the Salle Pleyel two years ago playing Beethoven--including the Waldstein and Appassionata, and he was superb. That concert and a recent Andras Schiff playing the Goldbergs are two live recital highlights....I think Pollini still has it.

[Dancing Divertimentian]

(Has anyone surpassed, or can anyone surpass, his Wanderer Fantasie, for instance?) 

I'll have to throw out "surpasses" as I haven't heard every single Wanderer performance out there but when it comes to "equalling" (at the very least) I'd unhesitatingly say Katchen.

[Sammy]

Not having heard the last few releases, I cannot comment on those specifically.  But my own impression is that Pollini's performances have became richer with time, and I tend to have more difficulties with the earlier recordings, such as the Polonaises and the Etudes of Chopin.  One of my fondest hopes is that Pollini will release new recordings of the late Sonatas (live or studio).

I haven't heard Pollini's new Beethoven disc and I'm not anxious to do so; that's only because I'm not into Beethoven these days.  However, I greatly enjoyed his Bach WTC I and would snap up Bk. 2 if he ever records it.

[betterthanfine]

All this talk about Pollini's Beethoven got me in the mood for some. Just finished listening to this cd:



His Tempest is still one of my favourite things he's done, and one of my favourite performances of that particular piece.

[Madiel]

Anyway, I always like the idea of a pianist doing something like this, something which defies expectations about how to play the music. That's one of the great stimulating things about collecting different versions - you can ask yourself, "why the hell has he done that?"

Logically, though, if you take that theory to its natural conclusion you get to the point where a pianist is defying the composer's expectations about how to play the music, leading the composer, if still around to hear it, asking "why the hell have you done that?"

[kishnevi]

Re Pollini, I have a theory about his later style, in Beethoven and in Chopin in fact.  I think he as an idea for the meaning of the music, often a hard one, to do with anger, toughness. And then every phrase, every second of the performance, is made to serve this idea. I think you hear this in op  2/3, some of the stuff on the new CD. And in the nocturne op 48/i on DG.

So the music becomes very focussed, focussed on something tough and nasty (that's fine, and it also explains why he's developed such a hard tone.) But it also becomes undifferentiated emotionally. Moments of energy and intensity and agression aren't contrasted with more relaxed, lyrical passages.

To some extent I'm saying that his way of playing is too simple. I wonder if the same applies to Gerhard Weinberger, in (for example) the Ricercar from Opfer and the Passacaglia.

I don't totally agree with you,  but I can relate what you're saying to what I've heard, and your theory may be correct--only the emotion remains so undifferentiated that the anger and toughness you posit don't come through to me.  It became merely mechanical.

At this stage I'm not sure whether I would want him to record WTC II.  It's a perfectly logical thing to do, and I'd get it to hear what he does with it--but I'm afraid he'll carry through to Bach what he's doing here.

[Fred]

Been listening to Richter Haaser (on EMI) and was expecting that, with a name like that he would be a stodgy german note manufacturer, but he has real temperament and a big technique.

[Mandryka]

I find it difficult to chose between Arrau 2 and 3. Yes, Arrau 2 seems more spontaneous, but Arrau 3 has got an air of an old mans wisdom, which I find very gripping.

One place where I agree about Arrau 3  is in op 10/3/i. If I had time I'd like to listen to more of the digital set in fast movements like this.

[George]

I find it difficult to chose between Arrau 2 and 3. Yes, Arrau 2 seems more spontaneous, but Arrau 3 has got an air of an old mans wisdom, which I find very gripping.

IIRC, you prefer Arrau 1 (Incomplete, EMI) over 2 and 3, right?

[prémont]

IIRC, you prefer Arrau 1 (Incomplete, EMI) over 2 and 3, right?

Yes, but the question was Arrau 2 versus Arrau 3.

[George]

Yes, but the question was Arrau 2 versus Arrau 3.

Ok, just wanted to make sure I had that right.

[Mandryka]

Yes, but the question was Arrau 2 versus Arrau 3.

Yes I like the EMIs, with the exception maybe of the Waldstein, where I think Arrau2 is very fine.