Beethoven's Piano Sonatas

[Brian]

I wonder what words Cosi bel do would use to describe HJ Lim, if he heard her.

[prémont]

But that's just like people who like Kempff, when I barely consider him as a "pianist".

In a way you may be right, because Kempff is first and foremost a great musician. If he had chosen to play organ, violoncello or whatever instead of piano, I am sure, that he would have become a great musician on that instrument.

[Rambaldi]

Curious, you post words like "arrogance" and phrases like "self-absorbed", yet it was you who previously posted that Schnabel and Badura-Skoda abuse Beethoven's music.  They are renowned artists, and you are a nobody.  Who offers greater insights into Beethoven?

As to the rest of your feeble attempt at a sanctimonious post, you are clearly an ignoramus when it comes to what Beethoven is available, but you can't admit it.  The internet is really quite easy to use.  You should spend a bit of time figuring out how to use it.

Forgive my English first. Obama must have logged off completely so I see no harm. I teach in University of Milan but I had this interaction with him trugh scholar channels and he has a doctorate dissertation of analysis of complete Beethoven's Sonatas at Yale University in USA which Murray Perahia the pianist directly contacted him. I assume one can access to that publication by way of JSTOR or at Yale University's Library Services but publishing his actual name here should be against privacy so keep it to yourselfs

[Todd]

[Baroque] Obama...has a doctorate dissertation of analysis of complete Beethoven's Sonatas at Yale University

Assuming this is true, it seems odd that a person of such learning would take to using words like "abuse" when describing Schnabel, but now he can't (unless he reregisters) describe why that may be.  And it doesn't address his inability to properly use the words "all" or "available."

[Mandryka]

Well maybe English wasn't his first language --  "abuses rhythmic freedom following Schnabel example" is something no native English speaker would say. Maybe it was just a typo.

That discussion is annoying because, basically, he makes claims and draws distinctions. He says that Badura Skoda ignores Beethoven's directives, he distinguishes between artistry and musicality, music. But it's all so taciturn  that it comes across as assertion. Imagine saying such things in a university seminar without backing things up and providing examples and explanations. No-one would take you seriously, someone would knock you down and then you'd be promptly ignored and treated as someone stupid.

And I guess that's what happened here. This board is clearly not a university seminar, but it's not completely without rigor, I hope.

[Rambaldi]

English is my third language. It is his language. He is American. If you wait a little I can't directly copy his publication because it is illegal in my University but I will search Schnabel. The Appendix C writes 54 complete recordings between first from 1930-1934 and last 2001. My area is different and it'is not my place but no one's place to judge too. Because if there is a material mistake there is one year objection time in Yale to prevent it publish. It is not important too. You look from a narrow glass maybe.

[Rambaldi]

Todd and Mandryka, yes there is a passage I find about Schnabel. It goes to a footnote that says -Citation from footnote 51- but the footnotes appendix are missing for me. I'll paste here if you confirm you won't quote what I write because I want to delete it after you read and confirm you read, OK?

[Rambaldi]

So you don't confirm and I can't do it. I'm sorry if I interrupted but you seemed care about Beethoven so I wanted to clear a knowledge. It is coming to midnight here so.

[Mandryka]

You're going to a lot of trouble and it's very laudable. I think if there's any risk of breaching a confidence or causing offence in quoting the thesis, it's best not to do it. After all, the author can always reregister if he choses.

I'll just mention that I find studies which analyse performance practice on record most helpful where they attempt to explain the practice, to identify the aesthetic principles which underly the performance. If Schanbel does X or Y, I want to know why. I've not come across that sort of thing for Beethoven. I have for J S Bach. I'd be especially interested to read a study on the recorded interpretations of the Missa Solemnis, as this is something which occupies me a lot at the moment. But I haven't managed to find one.

[Rambaldi]

You're going to a lot of trouble and it's very laudable. I think if there's any risk of breaching a confidence or causing offence in quoting the thesis, it's best not to do it. After all, the author can always reregister if he choses.

I'll just mention that I find studies which analyse performance practice on record most helpful where they attempt to explain the practice, to identify the aesthetic principles which underly the performance. If Schanbel does X or Y, I want to know why. I've not come across that sort of thing for Beethoven. I have for J S Bach.

I will read all of this on my vacation but his writing way is and reasoning is about explaining practices compared to the composer's scores and Beethoven's pupils' intentions. So you might like it. I'll send an e-mail to him mentioning your interest. His responses are upset but if you are close to Connecticut you can read it freely

[Rambaldi]

Well maybe English wasn't his first language --  "abuses rhythmic freedom following Schnabel example" is something no native English speaker would say. Maybe it was just a typo.

That discussion is annoying because, basically, he makes claims and draws distinctions. He says that Badura Skoda ignores Beethoven's directives, he distinguishes between artistry and musicality, music. But it's all so taciturn  that it comes across as assertion. Imagine saying such things in a university seminar without backing things up and providing examples and explanations. No-one would take you seriously, someone would knock you down and then you'd be promptly ignored and treated as someone stupid.

And I guess that's what happened here. This board is clearly not a university seminar, but it's not completely without rigor, I hope.

I didn't find a part writing Badura-Skoda ignores but there is a sentence written Schnabel at odds with Beethoven's more serene directives in terms of tempo he means

[Holden]

Yes, it is most unfortunate that Lucchesini is OOP.  Maybe it will come back to market.  It should.

I wonder if BO has any comments on Michael Houstoun's set or Shoko Sugitani's set, too.  Both are currently available and have been for years, but pretty much no one who posts online ever comments about them.

Todd, the Houstoun set is available here

http://www.43.co.nz/brands/Trust-Records.html

Though you may baulk at the price of the 4 sets - I certainly did. However, I have heard them all as well as hearing Houstoun's live LvB. The cycle is very good indeed with no real interpretative idiosynchrasies. It can be heard on NML but unfortunately they don't have your touchstone works, Op 31. The fact that Houstoun studied with Rudolf Serkin for two years might explain why I like his Beethoven.

[aquablob]

I'd be especially interested to read a study on the recorded interpretations of the Missa Solemnis, as this is something which occupies me a lot at the moment.

Yeah, that Mass is A-OK, eh?

[Brian]

Off-topic, but had I stayed in academia I would have loved for my research to all be freely available to the public. My mentor had the same mentality; when someone told her, "People are illegally uploading scans of your old, out-of-print books!" she said "Oh thank goodness, people can read them!"

[Sammy]

Seems we have a couple of newer members who want to make a big splash by dumping on a few revered pianists.  It's a time-honored activity to try to lift oneself above the herd, but it doesn't work with folks who know their music.

[Mookalafalas]

English is my third language. It is his language. He is American.

  He may be American, but English isn't his first language.  Maybe he's using voice recognition software and failed to check whether it registered correctly, but his syntax and grammar are way off, and in a way I can't even place.  By the way, I teach English as a second language, and have for most of the last 20 years.
   Also, speaking as a professional academic, just being an academic, or a would-be academic, doesn't guarantee that someone is capable of making a rational argument. 

[Rambaldi]

  He may be American, but English isn't his first language.  Maybe he's using voice recognition software and failed to check whether it registered correctly, but his syntax and grammar are way off, and in a way I can't even place.  By the way, I teach English as a second language, and have for most of the last 20 years.
 

So?


I wanted to write for the last 2 remarks "you are lucky you don't live in Italia because we call those kind of people bigot" but I checked wiki:
Bigotry: Bigotry is the state of mind of a bigot: someone who, as a result of their prejudices, treats or views other people with fear, distrust, hatred, contempt, or intolerance on the basis of a person's opinion, ethnicity, race, religion, national origin, gender, gender identity, sexual orientation, disability, socioeconomic status, or other characteristics.

So you are universal.

You must have the right to enjoy your uneducated, prejudged and personal information yourself but awareness is the beginning to forward step we say.

[aquablob]

I'm 12 and what is this?

[Brian]

Listening to the new Maria Perrotta album now. I don't know who Maria Perrotta is, but with Op. 109 just finished and Op. 110 starting, she's striking me as a modern-instrument (Steinway) Penelope Crawford: hasn't put a foot wrong, and is capable of summoning the "magic" when necessary. The only real eccentricity, so far, is a tendency to widely varied tempos in the first movements - starting slow, accelerating gradually but muchly. Applause after each sonata. Surpassing my expectations for sure.

EDIT: Finished the CD. Maybe not one of The Greatest, but certainly very, very good. I wish Decca had included a biography of the performer (and cut out the applause). Will listen many more times with pleasure.

[Que]

So?


I wanted to write for the last 2 remarks "you are lucky you don't live in Italia because we call those kind of people bigot" but I checked wiki:
Bigotry: Bigotry is the state of mind of a bigot: someone who, as a result of their prejudices, treats or views other people with fear, distrust, hatred, contempt, or intolerance on the basis of a person's opinion, ethnicity, race, religion, national origin, gender, gender identity, sexual orientation, disability, socioeconomic status, or other characteristics.

So you are universal.

You must have the right to enjoy your uneducated, prejudged and personal information yourself but awareness is the beginning to forward step we say.

I hate trolls...   Fortunately we see them rarely here, though this one seems to keep returning.
Does anyone remember a previous poster with a short-lived membership, called "The Raven"? Same guy... I didn't get the chance to check if Baroque Obama, but The Raven possibly had an alter ego as well...

Anyway, back to "normality"   

Q