Beethoven's Piano Sonatas

[Mandryka]

Yes I like that recording by Olivier Gardon. I think that there were some outstanding things on the BNL label and it's exciting to explore them. Another very good one is Fabienne Jacquinot's Schumann, and lots of stuff by Bernard Coudurier - Bruhns, Louis Marchand ...

[Mandryka]

.
[asin]B00HPZZOVI[/asin]



Op 2 is bad, very bad.  And it is attributable to Jumppanen's ornamentation in all but the slow movements.  Some ornamentation is cringe-inducing, some ugly, and almost all of it is terrible.  That written, when he plays more directly, he is quite good, recalling his superb playing in the Violin Sonata set with Corey Cerovsek.  His playing in Opp 101 and 106 is also much, much better.  His penchant for the occasional long pause, which also shows up in Op 2, is a mannerism I could live without, but his clarity in the fugues more than offsets quibbles in this regard.  A mixed bag of a set.  I just hope the remaining early sonatas aren't treated similarly to Op 2.  Superb sound.

Jumpannen wrote about this:

Over time, Beethoven refrained from applying the second repeats, and even among his early sonatas he indicates them only when there are no substantial codas to "have the last word," so to speak. The nature of the repeats also changed. Early on their purpose was more rhetorical; they opened the floor for the performer's creativity through improvised ornamentation. As his style matured, the repeats had more to do with the structural design of the music: certain ideas were reemphasized by the repetition so that the listener would remember and recognize them in development and variation.

I believe Beethoven explicitly said he didn't want repeats ornamented in slow movements, I'm not sure why.

Who do you think treats the op 2 repeats in a satisfying and imaginative way?

[Todd]

Who do you think treats the op 2 repeats in a satisfying and imaginative way?

From earlier in this thread:


2/1 – Fischer, Gulda, Pollini, Perahia, Schnabel

2/2 – Schnabel, Fischer, Gulda, Gulda (Orfeo), Hungerford

2/3 – Perahia, Fischer, Gulda, Backhaus, Brautigam


From newer (to me) recordings, I might add PBS' Astree recordings, FFG, Takacs, and possibly Kikuchi into the mix.  Younwha Lee is also extremely satisfying in a Gulda/Lipkin kinda way.

[Jo498]

Gulda/Amadeo has no repeats of the second parts (development+ recap) in op.2/1 or op.10/2. I do not know about current research but to my knowledge it is highly dubious that in Beethoven's pieces (or even late Haydn and Mozart) the repeats in fast sonata movements are to be embellished.

[Wanderer]

Jumpannen wrote about this:

I believe Beethoven explicitly said he didn't want repeats ornamented in slow movements, I'm not sure why.

Who do you think treats the op 2 repeats in a satisfying and imaginative way?

For the record, let me note that I think Jumppanen's embellishments in op.2 are tasteful and accordant to the spirit of the music. In no way did I find them offensive, crude or over-the-top. It helps, of course, that he doesn't just embellish as a gimmick but shapes his interpretations in an effortless and insightful manner.

[jlaurson]

For the record, let me note that I think Jumppanen's embellishments in op.2 are tasteful and accordant to the spirit of the music. In no way did I find them offensive, crude or over-the-top. It helps, of course, that he doesn't just embellish as a gimmick but shapes his interpretations in an effortless and insightful manner.

I second that. I find his op.2 particularly successful, actually. Refreshing, coy, witty.

[Mandryka]

Gulda/Amadeo has no repeats of the second parts (development+ recap) in op.2/1 or op.10/2. I do not know about current research but to my knowledge it is highly dubious that in Beethoven's pieces (or even late Haydn and Mozart) the repeats in fast sonata movements are to be embellished.

Maybe you could say a little more about this - why do you think it? How do you think you should take the repeats?

[Jo498]

I have not positive knowledge either way. I am interested in any information about research on "period practice" around 1800.
But I do not have the impression that Beethoven's style expects embellishments added by the player, independently of repeats. I think all embellishments are already written out.
The sonata form repeats are "architectural", not like in many baroque pieces an invitation and obligation for the player to embellish. (In faster baroque pieces like gigues additional embellishments seem also superfluous. Do I want to hear additional trills and stuff in the dead serious fugal Gigue at the end of Bach's e minor partita? Rather not.)
In the baroque era a slow chorale theme as in the slow mvmt of op.2/2 would probably have been embellished after its first statement. In Beethoven's movement this would be a travesty and kill the mood of the piece. The final rondo of this sonata might be a different case.

[Holden]

Listening to Op2/1 (i) and all is plain sailing right up until the very end and then, the embellishments. To my knowledge embellishments in the baroque period usually took the form of ornamentation such as mordants, trills, etc. Not a whole extra bar of music as occurs here. This is not what Beethoven wrote and surely not what he intended. Op2/2 (i) is even worse where Jumppanen fills up periods of meaningful silence with extra notes. Those rests (it might be in either hand) were included to be a meaningful part of the structure and tonality of the work. What Jumppanen does doesn't seem purposeful, just filling in the spaces.

It doesn't work for me. I shudder to contemplate what he does to the Hammerklavier at the end of this recital and I don't think I'm brave enough to find out.

[Todd]

It doesn't work for me. I shudder to contemplate what he does to the Hammerklavier at the end of this recital and I don't think I'm brave enough to find out.

He's much better in the other works.  The embellishments are mannerisms he deploys only in the Op 2 sonatas - well, so far.

[Mandryka]

Listening to Op2/1 (i) and all is plain sailing right up until the very end and then, the embellishments. To my knowledge embellishments in the baroque period usually took the form of ornamentation such as mordants, trills, etc. Not a whole extra bar of music as occurs here. This is not what Beethoven wrote and surely not what he intended. Op2/2 (i) is even worse where Jumppanen fills up periods of meaningful silence with extra notes. Those rests (it might be in either hand) were included to be a meaningful part of the structure and tonality of the work. What Jumppanen does doesn't seem purposeful, just filling in the spaces.

It doesn't work for me. I shudder to contemplate what he does to the Hammerklavier at the end of this recital and I don't think I'm brave enough to find out.

Yes they're like mini-cadenzas. I didn't feel that he spoiled the form, but I don't have your acuity probably. However, I'm not as as up for it as Jens -- I can think of quite a few other op 2s I'd prefer to hear. Part of my problem is that I don't like his touch or tone. And I'm inclined to agree with Todd that there's something a bit ugly about the them, and that Gould is more my sort of thing for being fresh, coy and witty.   PJs writing a book on Beethoven's piano sonatas. He clearly doesn't think the music's the score, and he clearly doesn't think that the op 2 silences are as meaningful as you suggest. And he clearly does thing that Beethoven intended a stimulus for performers' imaginations.

I'd be interested to hear what you think of the op 109/iii.

The discussion here has made me think about Beckmesser and Walter's Preislied.

[Jo498]

But Walter composed the Preislied himself, Jumppanen is welcome to compose his own op.2.
As I said, I'd be interested in any serious research about period practice and/or hints that Beethoven would have assumed performers taking liberties (for all I have read about Beethoven, he might have been furious).

There are spots in concerti or some similar music when additional embellishment or what's called "Eingänge" leading back to a rondo theme or similar things might be called for but filling in rests in a sonata form movement seems fairly preposterous. Should the woodwinds embellish the lyrical B flat major theme (it's simple enough, mainly plain crotchets) in the repeat of the exposition in the first movement of the Eroica? This seems obviously wrong.

[Pat B]

...(for all I have read about Beethoven, he might have been furious).

That seems a safe bet.

[Holden]

Yes they're like mini-cadenzas. I didn't feel that he spoiled the form, but I don't have your acuity probably. However, I'm not as as up for it as Jens -- I can think of quite a few other op 2s I'd prefer to hear. Part of my problem is that I don't like his touch or tone. And I'm inclined to agree with Todd that there's something a bit ugly about the them, and that Gould is more my sort of thing for being fresh, coy and witty.   PJs writing a book on Beethoven's piano sonatas. He clearly doesn't think the music's the score, and he clearly doesn't think that the op 2 silences are as meaningful as you suggest. And he clearly does thing that Beethoven intended a stimulus for performers' imaginations.

I'd be interested to hear what you think of the op 109/iii.

The discussion here has made me think about Beckmesser and Walter's Preislied.

Looks like you've forced me to listen to it. I'll report back when I've heard it.

[Mandryka]

Looks like you've forced me to listen to it. I'll report back when I've heard it.

Sorry, I meant op 106/ii, the scherzo. Distinctive pauses.  I liked it.

[Holden]

Had a listen, no surprises or added notes. Just a MOR performance of this work. To make sure I wasn't being too harsh I immediately listened to Annie Fischer for a comparison.

[Mandryka]

Had a listen, no surprises or added notes. Just a MOR performance of this work. To make sure I wasn't being too harsh I immediately listened to Annie Fischer for a comparison.

It's not middle of the road in the scherzo because of the pauses.

It does look as though he's reserving the mini cadenzas for the early sonatas so there's a principle being applied. Maybe he'll say more in the booklet to the new CD, if it will be released as a CD.

[North Star]

It's not middle of the road in the scherzo because of the pauses.

It does look as though he's reserving the mini cadenzas for the early sonatas so there's a principle being applied. Maybe he'll say more in the booklet to the new CD, if it will be released as a CD.

'If'?

[Fred]

Would welcome any comments on a guy called Shisei Hanai on Spotify. There are three beethoven CDs. What I've heard so far, I think he's fantastic.  Have just been listening to him floor it through 31(3)(IV) while in total control and with lots of expressive detail.

[Oldnslow]

Received the Daniel Ben-Pienaar set of the 32 but haven't begun listening as still working through Michael Houstoun's set.  Should be interesting, however, as Ben-Pienaar's notes strongly imply an interventionist approach. I have listened to his Goldbergs (no repeats, probably among the fastest since Gould's 1955 recording) and Diabellis. Clearly a formidable intellect and technique at work here. Be interesting to hear what Todd has to say about Ben-Pienaar.