Elderly Finnish conductor p*sses off wimmin conductors & their enablers.

[Chosen Barley]

http://www.wqxr.org/#!/story/conducting-guru-claims-women-shouldnt-be-conductors/

Panula was asked in a Finnish television interview on March 30 whether he appreciated the fact that more women are entering the profession. "I do not!" he responded. "What the hell, it is such a limited profession. There are more than enough men. They can try, but it is completely different. Some of them are making faces, sweating and fussing, but it is not getting any better – only worse!"

[North Star]

Of course he has taught Barbara Hannigan and Susanna Mälkki, among others.

[Ken B]

He has some other controversial things to say! My bold, pay no attention John and Nate

The 83-year-old conductor added that women can try to be conductors provided that the music is "feminine." For example, Stravinsky and Bruckner are not suitable for women; Debussy and Ravel are. "This is purely an issue of biology," he reportedly said.




Ken B <-- currently listening to he-man macho Pettersson, whilst flexing his massive biceps

[EigenUser]

He has some other controversial things to say! My bold, pay no attention John and Nate

The 83-year-old conductor added that women can try to be conductors provided that the music is "feminine." For example, Stravinsky and Bruckner are not suitable for women; Debussy and Ravel are. "This is purely an issue of biology," he reportedly said.




Ken B <-- currently listening to he-man macho Pettersson, whilst flexing his massive biceps

You can't intimidate me! You're forgetting that I love Bartok! Haven't you heard his solo piano sonata (the Sz.80)? Or the 1st PC?

Last year I saw Tzimon Barto play Bartok's 2nd PC with the NSO -- he actually is a weightlifter!

[North Star]

You can't intimidate me! You're forgetting that I love Bartok! Haven't you heard his solo piano sonata (the Sz.80)? Or the 1st PC?

Last year I saw Tzimon Barto play Bartok's 2nd PC with the NSO -- he actually is a weightlifter!

I wonder if he plays Beethoven's Op. 106..

[EigenUser]

I wonder if he plays Beethoven's Op. 106..

Haha  . Percy Grainger was known for running laps before performances and then running to the stage right to the piano.

[EigenUser]

http://www.wqxr.org/#!/story/conducting-guru-claims-women-shouldnt-be-conductors/

Panula was asked in a Finnish television interview on March 30 whether he appreciated the fact that more women are entering the profession. "I do not!" he responded. "What the hell, it is such a limited profession. There are more than enough men. They can try, but it is completely different. Some of them are making faces, sweating and fussing, but it is not getting any better – only worse!"

On the topic, though, people shouldn't take him seriously. There are people like that out there (sexist, racist, etc.) and these kinds of comments never really irk me as they do to so many. They just strike me as ridiculous (sometimes even laughable).

[North Star]

On the topic, though, people shouldn't take him seriously. There are people like that out there (sexist, racist, etc.) and these kinds of comments never really irk me as they do to so many. They just strike me as ridiculous (sometimes even laughable).

+1
And I suspect that Panula was just trying to make a joke, although a poor one.

[jochanaan]

One name in response: Marin Alsop.

[Daverz]

Is Panula running for a Congressional seat in Texas?

[CRCulver]

One name in response: Marin Alsop.

Alsop is a fine conductor, but I'm uncomfortable with people holding her up as a model of a successful female conductor, ignoring other women who have made it. Alsop is quite openly lesbian of the "butch" fashion, and pointing to her alone would send signals to some women interested in the career, that they have to give up their notions of femininity in order to make it.

I too suspect that Panula was trying to make a joke with the quotation in the opening post here. However, even if he wasn't, it's not surprising to hear conservative attitudes from men in their 80s. I was much more appalled by Bruno Mantovani's comments. Here we have a young man who came of age in a new music scene where women – and women conductors – were increasingly visible, and not only that, but he owes much of his own success to Susanna Mälkki performing his music.

In any event, I don't think that attitudes against women conductors are widespread in Finland. Besides Susanna Mälkki, Anna-Maria Helsing seems to be quite appreciated in this country's music scene.

[Brian]

Alsop is quite openly lesbian of the "butch" fashion, and pointing to her alone would send signals to some women interested in the career, that they have to give up their notions of femininity in order to make it.

Maybe I'm being too much of an obnoxious feminist here, but I even have a problem with stuff like this. I've seen Alsop live several times, and never thought of her as "butch" or even lesbian, frankly. Short hair, yeah; short person, yeah; but that's about it. (Vladimir Ashkenazy: also surprisingly short.) I've also seen Mälkki, JoAnn Falletta, Alondra de la Parra, and Rachel Podger. The idea, whether joking or serious, that there is proper "feminine" repertoire is antiquated and outdated and should have died with Martha Argerich Wanda Landowska Nadia Boulanger well it should have died a long time ago.

But I think my other problem is the subtler sexism that crosses all occupational borders and colors all of our society's dialogue: the fact that we're far more conscious of women as women than we are of men as men. Nobody would ever say "Leonard Slatkin is quite openly a horndog, and that would send signals that you have to bang deaf percussion soloists to make it," or "Leonard Bernstein was quite obviously gay, and pointing to him alone would signal some men that they have to be bicurious in order to make it."

Men, and particularly white men, are the "default setting." We don't think anything odd about any kind of white man conducting. But once a woman or a racial minority is on the podium, there's an added scrutiny that's very personal and rather unfair.

I do agree with CRCulver that Bruno Mantovani's comments, and Vasily Petrenko's comments, are more disturbing because they are from the "new generation." There is simply no excuse for younger people today, children of the 1970s onwards, to maintain their dumb sexist ideas about what gender is allowed to play which instruments and do which things in life. No excuse.

[Todd]

I've seen Alsop live several times, and never thought of her as "butch" or even lesbian, frankly. Short hair, yeah; short person, yeah; but that's about it.

She's openly gay.  It doesn't matter, of course, except, perhaps, in comparison to how gay male classical musicians are treated.  How many people comment much on, or even really care about, the sexual preference of <insert famous gay male artist name here>? 

But once a woman or a racial minority is on the podium, there's an added scrutiny that's very personal and rather unfair.

This seems to include residual tinges of your own cultural bias.  I seriously doubt most Japanese concertgoers care if the conductor is Japanese, for instance.  Perhaps you meant relative to each society.  It does seem that women have a harder time reaching the podium just about everywhere.

[Brian]

She's openly gay.  It doesn't matter, of course, except, perhaps, in comparison to how gay male classical musicians are treated.  How many people comment much on, or even really care about, the sexual preference of <insert famous gay male artist name here>? 

I agree; I don't think her sexuality matters any more than did Bernstein's or Mitropoulos'. (And yes, I was being relative, on the culture thing.)

I just ran this discussion by a female friend (not a classical music fan):

Sarah:  okay, only slightly relevant question: is she actually openly a lesbian?
me:  she is actually openly a lesbian, it's true
Sarah:  okay
i just wanted to know how much was being assumed here
regardless, the lady does not look "butch" in the picture you have provided, and even if she did, that whole line of argument is irrelevant
dude is uncomfortable with holding her up as the model of successful female conductors? too bad, if she's the most prominent one, she is. period. sexual orientation has nothing to do with it!
me:  i find it a little patronizing that hypothetical wannabe girl conductors are - that he assumes they'd go "oh Marin is successful. guess i have to be butch."
Sarah:  yeah
that is super condescending
also, the fact of the matter is that men are more often successful in a huge number of industries
so saying that having one successful lesbian in conducting is going to make women think they need to lose their femininity to "make it" in conducting is ignoring the world at large
You know what makes girls think they need to "lose their femininity" to make it? Everything.
Holding up one lesbian conductor as the "cause" is just as belittling as the original problem.

[Archaic Torso of Apollo]

Incidentally, Panula is the conductor on one of my favorite Naxos releases, an Einar Englund collection. I'm a bit puzzled as to why he didn't have a bigger international career.

I do agree with CRCulver that Bruno Mantovani's comments, and Vasily Petrenko's comments, are more disturbing because they are from the "new generation."

Dunno about Mantovani, but Petrenko grew up in Russia, a socially conservative country. Most of the world (probably 80% or more of the world population) would count as socially conservative by our definitions. It's us Westerners that are the outliers, globally speaking.

[Pat B]

I can see what CRCulver is getting at. But I also agree with Brian about the level of scrutiny. Suppose the single most successful female conductor was young, thin, and long-haired, then it's easy to imagine that some people would say, "she only got there because of her looks" (or worse). Which, I suspect, would be more discouraging for young women than anything that has been said about Alsop.

[Mr Bloom]

Incidentally, Panula is the conductor on one of my favorite Naxos releases, an Einar Englund collection. I'm a bit puzzled as to why he didn't have a bigger international career.

He's mostly a teacher, and probably one of the best if not the best these days. He teached to Esa-Pekka Salonen, Mikko Franck, Sakari Oramo,  Jukka-Pekka Saraste, Osmo Vänskä, Ari Rasilainen, John Storgårds and Dmitri Slobodeniouk, among others.

[The new erato]

And Transfigured Night is only suitable for transvestites I suppose?

[Chosen Barley]

"I've seen Alsop live several times, and never thought of her as "butch" or even lesbian, frankly. Short hair, yeah; short person, yeah; but that's about it."

It's also important to note her modesty.  This sentence is right at the top of her website:

"As Alsop faced the cellos and drew from them the most tremendously shaped phrases with every inflection of her baton, you were aware of being in the presence of greatness."  

http://www.marinalsop.com/media/

[Daverz]

Alsop is a fine conductor, but I'm uncomfortable with people holding her up as a model of a successful female conductor, ignoring other women who have made it. Alsop is quite openly lesbian of the "butch" fashion, and pointing to her alone would send signals to some women interested in the career, that they have to give up their notions of femininity in order to make it.

If a young woman is so homophobic that she feels discouraged from entering a profession by the existence of Marin Alsop, well I can't muster much sympathy or concern.