Author Topic: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)  (Read 179741 times)

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Scarpia

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Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
« Reply #340 on: February 10, 2010, 05:15:30 PM »
Wait!  Seriously?  Did not know about that, I must add to my wish list.  They didn't do all of them did they?  But at least several of the great ones?

27, 25, 24, 22, 20, and some earlier ones.  Some were issued in SACD as well as CD.

Franco

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Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
« Reply #341 on: February 10, 2010, 05:17:50 PM »
I'm surprised we are even allowed to discuss Brendel (and Uchida) in the HIP Mozart thread. Are we not going to be taken to task for impurifying this hollowed ground?  ;D

Hollowed ground?  Like a grave? 

Or did you mean hallowed ground?

Elgarian

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Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
« Reply #342 on: February 11, 2010, 01:46:46 AM »
This is not about HIP vs. anti-HIP, this is about introverted vs. extroverted.
Oh no, it's certainly at least partly about HIP v non-HIP ('non', rather than 'anti') - but the post as a whole (rather than just the bit you quote) is also about discovering for myself (rather than merely accepting an opinion stated by others) that mere HIPness isn't enough in itself. I was discovering things in the Schmidt/Masur performance that were more delightful and expressive, in some ways, than the Sofronitzki. However, that  'big, cloudy, imprecise' orchestral Mozart sound of Marriner's, for instance (a sound that I've disliked for decades without knowing why until recently) is partly a symptom of non-HIPness, and partly a lack of the decisiveness that Masur offers. I wouldn't know how to discuss these things in isolation, actually.

Quote
There is a whole spectrum of performances here, and one doesn't have to bash one to appreciate the other. :)
Indeed. That spectrum is what I set out trying to explore - but I'm only at the very beginning of the process. I wasn't really bashing Brendel, you know, any more than I was bashing Elvis. I was trying to describe my actual experience of listening to those three performances as clearly as I could, and that's just how it came out. I'm already familiar with the deeply expressive playing of Brendel in some of Beethoven's sonatas, and that knowledge exaggerated the shock I felt when I found that it didn't seem to work very well with this particular Mozart concerto. What I'm reporting here is a stage in a process, not a final result.

I should explain - though I hope it was already clear - that my purpose was not to divert the discussion away from HIP Mozart; rather, it was to explore my HIP Sofronitzki recordings in the context of more traditional approaches, the better to understand (hopefully, in the long run) what's going on. I don't see how else to do that, except by comparing them with non-HIP performances and trying to sort out the significance of the differences.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2010, 01:56:54 AM by Elgarian »

DarkAngel

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Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
« Reply #343 on: February 11, 2010, 05:21:48 AM »
I'd like to make a preliminary report on my Great Mozart Piano Concerto Experiment.

The story so far: First, after lengthy anguishing, I bought the horrendously expensive box of HIP concertos with Viviana Sofronitzki on fortepiano, conducted by Tadeusz Karolak:



I listened to quite a lot of the discs - some several times over, and found myself more and more charmed, enchanted, excited, enticed, beguiled by them. This was a huge breakthrough - I've never been fond of the piano, never much enjoyed piano concertos, never cared tuppence for Mozart's in particular; yet here I was, unexpectedly listening over and over and wanting to listen to nothing else. And I started to ask - does the HIP performance really make all this difference? The difference between light and dark? Between Yes and No? I wanted a non-HIP set for comparison, to see how much change had been going on in me, rather than in the type of performance I was listening to.

jpc were selling the Annerose Schmidt/Kurt Masur box for a merely nominal sum, so I sent for one. Shortly afterwards Navneeth pointed out that they were selling the Brendel/Marriner set for not much more, so, fearing the Schmidt/Masur might be rather mediocre, I took the plunge and sent for that as well. They've both arrived:



I've made a first tentative start to the experiment by listening to the 25th (K503), first by Sofronizki, second by Schmidt, third by Brendel. The result - I'm really quite stunned.

I think the Sofronitzki is terrific - vital, rippling playing from the fortepiano, sharp orchestral playing, lovely crunchy HIP sounds - just the thing that's been wowing me for the last couple of weeks.  A winner all the way. So when I put the Schmidt/Masur into the player I expected to be crushingly disappointed.

Well, it sure isn't HIP. And of course the piano sound is so much rounder and smoother and more mellow than the fortepiano. But I was shocked by how much I was being swept along by the music. The orchestral playing is incisive, decisive, urgent, and convincing. Schmidt plays with conviction and vitality. I reached the end amazed and delighted that I seemed to have found a completely different way of enjoying the piano concertos. So then I put on the Brendel and expected to be sent into spasms of ecstasy.

Elgarian
take solace in knowing that you purchased my favorite fortepiano complete set of Mozart piano concertos, so you actually saved money by not having to run the gauntlet of Bilson, Immerseel etc A quick check of UK vendors shows no stock, and Amazon USA now wants $112......
 
I want to know how you found out about Annerose Schmidt set, I sampled that extensively and fully agree it sounds like a great set, completely unknown to me till your post here. Actually recorded in mid 1970's and Masur has never sounded this fresh and alive in anything else I have heard, I am sold on this delightful set and order is placed..........
 
I agree with you in general on Brendel although do not have any of the newer Brendel/MacKerras concertos which many like better......
 
Perhaps you could also put a copy of that great post over in the Mozart piano concerto thread which had some mentions already of Sofronitzski set...........spread the word brother
http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,3279.150.html
« Last Edit: February 11, 2010, 05:33:48 AM by DarkAngel »

Elgarian

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Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
« Reply #344 on: February 11, 2010, 06:58:27 AM »

Elgarian
take solace in knowing that you purchased my favorite fortepiano complete set of Mozart piano concertos, so you actually saved money by not having to run the gauntlet of Bilson, Immerseel etc A quick check of UK vendors shows no stock, and Amazon USA now wants $112......
Well, DA - your persistent praise of the set was a big factor in persuading me to take the plunge. Thank you for that.
 
Quote
I want to know how you found out about Annerose Schmidt set, I sampled that extensively and fully agree it sounds like a great set, completely unknown to me till your post here. Actually recorded in mid 1970's and Masur has never sounded this fresh and alive in anything else I have heard, I am sold on this delightful set and order is placed..........
I stumbled upon it by chance while browsing through jpc's special offers, looking for a cheap box set of non-HIP Mozart concertos. When I saw the price (still available for 14.99 euros last time I looked), and after I listened to some of the samples, I, like you, thought 'this is promising'. Of course you can only tell so much from short samples, but I'm becoming more and more pleased with it. I think you'll enjoy it quite as much as I am doing.
 
Quote
Perhaps you could also put a copy of that great post over in the Mozart piano concerto thread which had some mentions already of Sofronitzski set...........spread the word brother
I'll do that right now.

Antoine Marchand

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Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
« Reply #345 on: February 12, 2010, 08:34:06 AM »
This 10-CD box is one of the best included in the Brilliant Mozart Edition: great performers (Bart van Oort, Pieter-Jan Belder, Bernard Foccroulle, Luc Devos, etc.), fine historically informed performances and a great variety of instruments.

Here a short, but illustrative review on MUSICWEB INTERNATIONAL

IMO, the list of instruments should be carefully checked out. 

Some SAMPLES HERE.

Offline Que

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Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
« Reply #346 on: February 12, 2010, 10:52:33 AM »
I'm surprised we are even allowed to discuss Brendel (and Uchida) in the HIP Mozart thread. Are we not going to be taken to task for impurifying this hoallowed ground?  ;D

Technically, I think we can mention any non-HIP performer, as long as we include a condescending remark that they are decidedly not HIP.


Phhhhh, guys, guys, what is your problem?  :P
Taking offence of threads that are focused on specific interests? ::) "segregation"?  :o

Yes, I for one do enjoy performances on period instruments and like to discuss their in and outs on a thread focused on that - is there something wrong with that? I also like Furtwängler and enjoy the thread that is on him as well - something wrong with that as well? ::)

Q
« Last Edit: February 12, 2010, 10:56:31 AM by Que »

Franco

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Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
« Reply #347 on: February 12, 2010, 11:00:58 AM »
For myself, I don't like the segregating of threads according to performance style, and would enjoy having everyone posting about Mozart or Beethoven works in threads according to the works, e.g. Beethoven Symphonies - as opposed to Beethoven Symphonies on Period Instruments and another one on Beethoven Symphonies on Record.


Offline Opus106

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Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
« Reply #348 on: February 12, 2010, 11:14:27 AM »
For myself, I don't like the segregating of threads according to performance style, and would enjoy having everyone posting about Mozart or Beethoven works in threads according to the works, e.g. Beethoven Symphonies - as opposed to Beethoven Symphonies on Period Instruments and another one on Beethoven Symphonies on Record.

That last one was a recent off-shoot. But, in general, would you really like to read, say, discussions on Schnabel's first recordings of some Bach and a recent release on Bach's clavichord words in counterpoint? Although the "camp" mentality is probably not necessary, it would be helpful if the discussions on period and modern instruments (recordings) existed within their own threads, IMO.
Regards,
Navneeth

Offline Que

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Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
« Reply #349 on: February 12, 2010, 11:17:03 AM »
For myself, I don't like the segregating of threads according to performance style, and would enjoy having everyone posting about Mozart or Beethoven works in threads according to the works, e.g. Beethoven Symphonies - as opposed to Beethoven Symphonies on Period Instruments and another one on Beethoven Symphonies on Record.

First of all, you can post anything you like on the general thread, as long as it is on Beethoven Symphonies - even HIP. I hope you don't mind what others do.

Secondly, if someone starts a thread on a specific topic, the thread is on that specific topic. Seems obvious to me.

Thirdly, with that recipe you could object to (m)any distiction(s) regarding topic.
Why are there two seperate threads on Bach's Goldberg Variations? One on piano recordings, and another on harpsichord recordings?
Why are there various threads on Baroque music, why not only one?
Why is there a thread dedicated to each Beethoven symphony? Why not only one?

Because some like to focus their dicussion on certain topics, are even aspects of a subject, that's why. ::)
I hope you and others don't mind and are able to respect that. :-* Because I see very little respect at the moment.

Q

Franco

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Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
« Reply #350 on: February 12, 2010, 11:20:26 AM »
That last one was a recent off-shoot. But, in general, would you really like to read, say, discussions on Schnabel's first recordings of some Bach and a recent release on Bach's clavichord words in counterpoint? Although the "camp" mentality is probably not necessary, it would be helpful if the discussions on period and modern instruments (recordings) existed within their own threads, IMO.

To answer your question, yes, I would prefer one thread and read about PI as well as modern performances since I like hearing about recordings of note no matter what the performance style is used.   

Franco

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Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
« Reply #351 on: February 12, 2010, 11:23:28 AM »
First of all, you can post anything you like on the general thread, as long as it is on Beethoven Symphonies - even HIP. I hope you don't mind what others do.

Secondly, if someone starts a thread on a specific topic, the thread is on that specific topic. Seems obvious to me.

Thirdly, with that recipe you could object to (m)any distiction(s) regarding topic.
Why are there two seperate threads on Bach's Goldberg Variations? One on piano recordings, and another on harpsichord recordings?
Why are there various threads on Baroque music, why not only one?
Why is there a thread dedicated to each Beethoven symphony? Why not only one?

Because some like to focus their dicussion on certain topics, are even aspects of a subject, that's why. ::)
I hope you and others don't mind and are able to respect that. :-* Because I see very little respect at the moment.

Q

I don't have a problem with any of this (although until recently there was no general thread on Beethoven symphonies) - I was simply stating my preference: one thread on basic works that are regularly recorded as complete sets, all comers welcome.


Offline Opus106

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Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
« Reply #352 on: February 12, 2010, 11:28:18 AM »
To answer your question, yes, I would prefer one thread and read about PI as well as modern performances since I like hearing about recordings of note no matter what the performance style is used.   

I was thinking of more practical matters like the ease of following a discussion -- which I would find rather difficult if two or three separate (and long) strands kept on simultaneously -- as opposed to preferences over playing practices. :)
Regards,
Navneeth

Offline Que

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Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
« Reply #353 on: February 12, 2010, 11:39:18 AM »
I don't have a problem with any of this (although until recently there was no general thread on Beethoven symphonies) - I was simply stating my preference: one thread on basic works that are regularly recorded as complete sets, all comers welcome.

Noted. But as we've said before: if you need a thread that isn't there - start one, instead of party-pooping somewhere else. 8)

BTW, just for the record: that last remark about lack of respect was not directed to you.

Q

Elgarian

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Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
« Reply #354 on: February 12, 2010, 01:23:15 PM »


This 10-CD box is one of the best included in the Brilliant Mozart Edition: great performers (Bart van Oort, Pieter-Jan Belder, Bernard Foccroulle, Luc Devos, etc.), fine historically informed performances and a great variety of instruments.

Here a short, but illustrative review on MUSICWEB INTERNATIONAL


Ye gods - I've just been listening to the samples and I can't believe the price of this box ..... Many, many thanks for bringing it up for notice.

Antoine Marchand

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Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
« Reply #355 on: February 13, 2010, 09:30:13 AM »
Ye gods - I've just been listening to the samples and I can't believe the price of this box ..... Many, many thanks for bringing it up for notice.

You’re welcome, Elgarian.

I have enjoyed reading your posts –especially the first one- on your new and joyful approach towards Mozart.

BTW, although you have surely noticed this fact, it should be noticed that the excellent Brilliant set doesn’t include the piano sonatas. 

 :)

Offline Que

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Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
« Reply #356 on: February 13, 2010, 09:50:15 AM »
Excellent, Antoine! :)
This one has flown below my radar, that is focuses on the keyboard works outside of the solo sonatas makes it a simply perfect addition/acquisition! :)

Q

Offline Opus106

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Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
« Reply #357 on: February 13, 2010, 10:13:19 AM »
Just throwing this into the ring. I remember one or two HIPsters on this thread approve of it, and it's on my wish-list as a less-expensive alternative to the Brautigam set.



Mozart: Complete Keyboard Works (one and two performers) - 14 CDs
Bart van Oort
Brilliant Classics
Regards,
Navneeth

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Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
« Reply #358 on: February 13, 2010, 10:16:34 AM »
Just throwing this into the ring. I remember one or two HIPsters on this thread approve of it, and it's on my wish-list as a less-expensive alternative to the Brautigam set.



Mozart: Complete Keyboard Works (one and two performers) - 14 CDs
Bart van Oort
Brilliant Classics

That's the one I'd like to have, the 14 disk version. It has a couple of things on there of which there are no other recordings, by anyone. When I go back to my Mozart collection for updating purposes, I will be picking that one up. :)

8)

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Elgarian

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Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
« Reply #359 on: February 13, 2010, 10:23:21 AM »
BTW, although you have surely noticed this fact, it should be noticed that the excellent Brilliant set doesn’t include the piano sonatas. 
Oh yes, that's what made me sit up and take notice (for the same reasons as Que). I already have the Brautigam box; and Amazon have just informed me that your Brilliant Bargain Box is now on its way to join it. Hoorah!