Author Topic: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)  (Read 188475 times)

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Scarpia

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Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
« Reply #600 on: February 21, 2011, 08:13:02 AM »
And the short answer to that question: I don't know, amigo. To me, they play appropriately at all times. The only PI recordings I have to judge them against are Pinnock's (other than the last ones, of course, which every old horn in the world has taken a blow at ::) ). And to me, there is no question that they play much more colorfully than the English Concert in these disks (despite that I like the EC, they get blown away here). A lot of this has to come from adjusting your mindset (ear set?) to the fact that in this context, there is no 'weight of the orchestra' by our standards. I was reading an excellent essay on Haydn's reception just last week. The term 'sublime' comes up in a couple of spots, and its usage there is based on the fact that his entire orchestra was playing full out suddenly. Well, the author was quick to point out that the entire orchestra for that work was 19 people, and when played identically today it makes little or no impression at all, and yet writers from the time are quite amazed at the din that was created at that particular point. It wouldn't have been any different with Mozart. :)

To make a long story short, I ordered it.  I received a Borders 33% coupon and got a $40 discount on the set, which put it substantially below Amazon's best deal.   :o  Problem it, it is "backordered" so I have to wonder whether more copies really exist at the distributor, and if Borders will remain in business long enough to ship it.   I can always cancel, in any case.  This set seems to be dwindling (not widely listed and most sites report it is out of stock).  The question, is it about to vanish from the market, or is it about to be reissued as super-bargain?  In any case, I have my chips on the board and the wheel is spinning.   ;D

Offline SonicMan46

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Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
« Reply #601 on: March 03, 2011, 06:00:59 PM »
Thanks for that info, Antoine. I have seen this disk, but nothing in the very limited information in the entry leads one to believe that it might be PI. Especially not knowing the players.

Gurn & Antonie et al - I am curious about the disc below, i.e. w/ Kocsis & Ranki playing the Mozart Keyboard Duets - these are being offered at ClassicsOnline for $20, but I'm reluctant for several reasons: 1) the instruments used, would prefer harpsichord and/or fortepiano; and 2) not sure of the quality of the performances (these are 1978 recordings, Kocsis was quite young and I mainly own recordings of him in more 'modern' works, such as Bartok) - so, would be quite interested in the opinions offered concerning these performances - Dave  :D



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Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
« Reply #602 on: March 03, 2011, 06:38:15 PM »
Gurn & Antonie et al - I am curious about the disc below, i.e. w/ Kocsis & Ranki playing the Mozart Keyboard Duets - these are being offered at ClassicsOnline for $20, but I'm reluctant for several reasons: 1) the instruments used, would prefer harpsichord and/or fortepiano; and 2) not sure of the quality of the performances (these are 1978 recordings, Kocsis was quite young and I mainly own recordings of him in more 'modern' works, such as Bartok) - so, would be quite interested in the opinions offered concerning these performances - Dave  :D




Dave,
It was hard to spot in there, but I asked that same question; this from Antoine:

Yes the info is very, very limited. I have listened to some tracks via NML, but I am confused, for instance, about the harpsichord used (if it is a harpsichord at all) because it sounds like those generic instruments from the fifties and sixties. Just one sonata is played on that instrument (K. 19d) and the remaining pieces are played on modern piano. Anyway, the interpretations are quite good.  :)

So that's that. I would rec that one on Profil as a nice starter. I enjoy it a lot. :)

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Offline FideLeo

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Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
« Reply #603 on: March 06, 2011, 03:18:28 AM »
Viviana Sofronitzki plays the d minor concerto, first movement.  She improvises the cadenza, rather unsatisfactorily I must say.
 
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/Q2YAaNrtdF4" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/Q2YAaNrtdF4</a>



HIP for all and all for HIP! Harpsichord for Bach, fortepiano for Beethoven and pianoforte for Brahms!

Antoine Marchand

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Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
« Reply #604 on: March 13, 2011, 08:04:41 AM »
Look at this my little friends:  ;D



Quote
INFORMATION
The four-hand repertoire was certainly not popular during the period that the young Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart and his slightly older sister Nannerl would be placed behind a clavier to entertain audiences with four-hand music. Mozart wrote five duet Sonatas and several separate works for pianoforte four-hand. On this CD, the four-hand pieces are Mozart’s two last and most monumental sonatas. They explore the limits of the pianoforte, both literally and regarding sound volume. Mozart did not shy away from giving both players an independent and often complicated and technically demanding part.

Sonata in F, K. 497:Mozart’s way of exploiting the opportunities inherent in the four-hand repertoire was pioneering and led to impressive results. This sonata reminds one not only of his symphonic music and operas but also his sometimes highly virtuosic pieces and concertos for pianoforte.

Sonata in C K 521: Instead of the tight interweaving of the four hands of K 497, this sonata establishes a more competitive relationship
between the two performers. Many are the passages where they
imitate each other (with deviations).

The Sonata in D K 448 similar to the K 521 sonata. Here, too, scores of virtuosic figures are passed back and forth by the performers.
(Source: linernotes of the CD 'Sonatas for four hands'- Il Pulcini - Marie & Veronika Kuijken)

Challenge website

This link is for Gurn & Dave.  ;D

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Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
« Reply #605 on: March 13, 2011, 08:11:22 AM »
Antoine,
Coolness! Gracias. Actually, I pre-ordered it at Amazon instead:



April 12 is not that far away. :)

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Antoine Marchand

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Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
« Reply #606 on: March 13, 2011, 08:20:24 AM »



April 12 is not that far away. :)

Allegro is probably more expensive without Amazon's free shipping... But they have the thing in stock right now!  :D

Offline Grazioso

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Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
« Reply #607 on: March 13, 2011, 09:24:03 AM »
Good Heavens, the Kuijken clan is like a HIP army! They're daughters of Sigiswald, it turns out. I wonder if uncles Barthold and Wieland have brought us any period-instrument progeny...
There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact. --Sir Arthur Conan Doyle

Antoine Marchand

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Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
« Reply #608 on: March 13, 2011, 09:42:56 AM »
Good Heavens, the Kuijken clan is like a HIP army! They're daughters of Sigiswald, it turns out. I wonder if uncles Barthold and Wieland have brought us any period-instrument progeny...

Yes, Wieland and his son Piet, an accomplished keyboardist.


They even recorded a beautiful version of Bach's gamba sonatas, with Piet Kuijken playing the harpsichord.


And recently was released a disc where he plays Schumann on pianoforte:


 :)


Offline SonicMan46

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Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
« Reply #609 on: March 13, 2011, 09:55:13 AM »
Antoine - thanks for all of the information & links on the talented Kuijken family - will put that disc on my 'wish list'!  Dave  :D


Offline The new erato

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Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
« Reply #611 on: April 07, 2011, 11:38:32 AM »
Beware! The Hurwitzer is on the prowl again:


WOLFGANG AMADEUS MOZART
Piano Concertos Nos. 9 "Jeunehomme" & 12
Ronald Brautigam (fortepiano)

Die Kölner Akademie

Michael Alexander Willens

BIS- 1794(SACD)

Ugly is as ugly sounds. Here is yet another barfalicious period instrument ensemble--amateur hour masquerading as scholarship. Brautigam is a fine artist, usually, but he's been let down time and again by his accompanists. Remember his powerful Beethoven concertos paired with Andrew Parrott's anorexic accompaniments? Well, at least Parrott had a real orchestra. These guys make Parrott sound positively voluptuous. Truth be told, though, Brautigam is equally to blame for this disaster. His fortepiano sounds as miserable, in its way, as the orchestral strings--scant sustaining power, little possibility of lyricism or a true legato (which we know Mozart craved), and Brautigam compensates with an excess of ornamentation that comes across as mere noodling. The damage is particularly serious in the slow movement of the "Jeunehomme" Concerto, which turns into 10 minutes of torture. Enough already. This is yet another triumph of pedantry over musicality.


--David Hurwitz




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Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
« Reply #612 on: April 07, 2011, 12:11:39 PM »
I would like to see in writing that Mozart 'craved' a true legato. I think he is totally mixing up Mozart with Beethoven, who actually did want plenty of real legato. In the volumes of Mozart that I have read, I didn't note any particular craving for legato.

Not to say the band may not suck, I thought the Parrott/Beethoven did. :-\  Wonder if Brautigam is discerning enough about who he crawls into bed with, so to speak. He is a high enough ranking artist to just say no if he wants to... :(

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DavidW

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Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
« Reply #613 on: April 13, 2011, 02:22:09 PM »
I wanted to post that I like that Jacobs recording of the 39th and 40th.  The best I've heard, not as stuffy/stately as the mi recordings I've heard but not an absurd mad dash either.  It sounds almost Beethovenian, but nuanced in that elegant Mozartian dance like way that Jacobs seems to know better than most.



Thanks to the several posters that rec'd it to me a few months back! :)

Offline Mandryka

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Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
« Reply #614 on: April 13, 2011, 10:15:07 PM »
I wanted to post that I like that Jacobs recording of the 39th and 40th.  The best I've heard, not as stuffy/stately as the mi recordings I've heard but not an absurd mad dash either.  It sounds almost Beethovenian, but nuanced in that elegant Mozartian dance like way that Jacobs seems to know better than most.



Thanks to the several posters that rec'd it to me a few months back! :)

"Seldom has so much obvious talent and skill resulted in such unstylish, even  perverse results. The Freiburger Barockorchester continues to impress as the  ugliest ensemble, tonally speaking, on disc. . . . It's played with little or no vibrato, all of its repeats, and is so  inexpressive and mechanically paced, so far removed from period style, heck,  from basic musicality, that it's shocking. Listening is a punishment."

David Hurwitz at http://www.classicstoday.com/review.asp?ReviewNum=12644 -- my italics.

Put aside judgements of taste for the moment. There are people who post here, I think, who have thought about authentic practice in Mozart. I'd like to understand more. What do you think of Hurwitz's claim that Jacobs's interpretation is  far removed from period style?
« Last Edit: April 13, 2011, 10:20:08 PM by Mandryka »
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Offline czgirb

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Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
« Reply #615 on: April 13, 2011, 10:29:18 PM »
Just bought the Ronald Brautigam Piano Sonatas set a few months ago, and have the Piano Concertos w/ Bilson & Gardiner in the mail - should arrive early next week, if not sooner.

But, looking forward to other recommendations -  :D

 

What is your opinion regarding to Ronald Brautigam, Sonic Man?

DavidW

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Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
« Reply #616 on: April 14, 2011, 04:11:56 AM »
What do you think of Hurwitz's claim that Jacobs's interpretation is  far removed from period style?

He means Jacobs' "manipulation of dynamics" which is what I described as "nuanced in that elegant Mozartian dance like way that Jacobs seems to know better than most". 

If you don't care for what Jacobs does then you will dislike the recording, else you'll like it.  It's not all over the place, these strange changes are in a select few places.  And I think it makes the recording unique. 

The thing is that Hurwitz is wrong to label that as anti-PI.  It's the modern style of performing that lavishes undo attention to literal playing of the score.  PIons know and expect that the composers in the baroque and classical era expected the performers to bring their own character to the music.

If you like golden era performers for their personal stamp on the music, then Mandryka you should have no problem with how Jacobs approaches Mozart. :)

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Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
« Reply #617 on: April 14, 2011, 04:21:11 AM »
Unfortunately, I have about 3 minutes before I must leave for an extended training session, but I will put this out there for Mandryka as an idea, and if Hurwitz is still scouring the Web to read my stuff, then for him, too. :)

One of the main knocks against 'HIP' has been, since the first, that it suffered from literal interpretation of the score, metronomic application of tempos, no note that wasn't written down etc.. Of course, anyone who has followed the PI movement with more than passing interest knows that this stereotype disappeared 15 or more years ago, but never mind that, we can perpetuate it anyway.

So now, you see a much more authentic performance in which liberties are taken with "standard, traditional" tempos, and some parts of some works are played in a totally different way than ones expectations would dictate. So now, that performance is twisted too! Hurwith is in love with the sound of his own 'voice', and the things he has written in that quote, Mandryka, are so totally off that I have my doubts that he has ever even heard these disks. When it comes to period performance, Hurwitz is the last person on my list to check with, since everything I have read by him about it has been diametrically opposed to what my own ears tell me. :)

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Offline SonicMan46

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Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
« Reply #618 on: April 14, 2011, 05:56:18 AM »
What is your opinion regarding to Ronald Brautigam, Sonic Man?

My word! That is indeed an old post brought forward! - I've not listened to that set in a while, and have also added another w/ Alexei Lubimov of the fortepiano (own 2 other sets on modern piano - but I prefer the PI recordings).

So, just popped in the last discs of each set and listening to the No. 15 & 16 Piano Sonatas.  Brautigam plays on a Paul McNulty fortepiano built in 1992, after an Anton Walter original, ca. 1795; while Lubimov performs on an instrument (for these works) by Christopher Clarke (1986) based on one by Anton Walter, ca. 1795; recordings dates are 1996 & 1990, respectively.

Brautigam offers a spirited and dynamic performance; his allegros can be explosive at times, but the slow movements are played w/ grace and a steady melodic line.  The fortepiano is in excellent condition and is superbly recorded; the struck notes are clearly heard and jump out from the speakers.  If you want a fortepiano set of these works (and like the instrument), then this set should not disappoint, if found at the right price!

Lubimov is also outstanding, not as dynamic or percussive in the allegros, but notes are all clear and precise; he does use a number of different fortepianos but on these works, the instrument described above is in great condition, well tuned, and recorded just as well.  I have no problem in recommending either of these PI sets. But please read the other comments earlier in this thread - plenty made on Brautigam and to a lesser extent on Lubimov, as I remember.  Good luck in your selection(s).


 

Offline Mandryka

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Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
« Reply #619 on: April 14, 2011, 11:58:21 AM »
Thanks for replying about Jacob's authenticity -- I think I am starting to understand.

I got the CD with 39 today. I know the CD with 38 and 41. I can certainly hear some dynamic shading in  38 which I don't hear in other performances.

There are some memorable sonic effects in the 38 == an astonishing trumpet blast in the opening adagio which sounds just like the last judgement. And some memorable dynamic contrasts:  at one point the music sounds like an echo. It's a romp. Haydnfan says the 39 is not an "absurd mad dash"; will the 38 primo  comes close,  IMO.

On the emotional level, his Prague seems pretty shallow to me. Nuanced dynamically, yes. Nuanced emotionally, no. Compared with Harnoncourt's on the Bartolli DVD, Jacobs is shallow. And that's just thinking HIP. If not, there's Klemperer's and Maag's too.

I'll listen to the 39 and 40 tomorrow if I get time.


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