UKIP Idiocy

[Florestan]

You'd hate the socialist utopia even if it worked??

What do you mean by "the socialist utopia"?

[North Star]

What do you mean by "the socialist utopia"?

Common ownership. Obviously it will not work, but I wouldn't mind if someone made cold fusion work, either..

[jochanaan]

Common ownership. Obviously it will not work, but I wouldn't mind if someone made cold fusion work, either..

It worked for the early Christians and for the Native Americans...

[Florestan]

Common ownership.

It did not work. It doesn't work. It will not work. But you're right, even if it worked I'd still hate it because I hate people being transformed into ants.

[Florestan]

It worked for the early Christians and for the Native Americans...

Yes, but it was voluntary, not imposed and maintained by the force of the state, which is what socialism is all about.

[North Star]

Yes, but it was voluntary, not imposed and maintained by the force of the state, which is what socialism is all about.

If it would work, it would not be imposed upon anyone. But as I said, it obviously will not work. As to people being transformed into ants, are you saying that if that utopia came to be everywhere, most people's workload would larger than it was, and less fair?

[jochanaan]

Yes, but it was voluntary, not imposed and maintained by the force of the state, which is what socialism is all about.

Indeed.

[Florestan]

If it would work, it would not be imposed upon anyone. But as I said, it obviously will not work. As to people being transformed into ants, are you saying that if that utopia came to be everywhere, most people's workload would larger than it was, and less fair?

I'm saying that if it came to be everywhere, and everything would be hold in common, then there will be no more personal independence and creativity in humans than in ants. 

[jochanaan]

I'm saying that if it came to be everywhere, and everything would be hold in common, then there will be no more personal independence and creativity in humans than in ants. 

I'm not sure I agree with that.  It would depend on how it came about.  If it were imposed by some humans on others, then yes, it's very likely that independent thought would be squashed; but if by some miracle the human race or a significant fraction thereof agreed to give up individual ownership of land or houses or things, that would still allow for individualism and the exercise of differing gifts and talents and desires...

[North Star]

If only Scriabin had lived long enough..

[jochanaan]

If only Scriabin had lived long enough..

Yes.  Now we'll probably have to wait for the actual Second Coming!

[Ken B]

It worked for the early Christians and for the Native Americans...

Depends on what you mean by worked. Look up for example the fate of the Hurons.

[Moonfish]

It did not work. It doesn't work. It will not work. But you're right, even if it worked I'd still hate it because I hate people being transformed into ants.

We are 7.2 billion ants already. Face it!     

[Ken B]

We are 7.2 billion ants already. Face it!     

Ah go formicate yourself!

[Moonfish]

I'm not sure I agree with that.  It would depend on how it came about.  If it were imposed by some humans on others, then yes, it's very likely that independent thought would be squashed; but if by some miracle the human race or a significant fraction thereof agreed to give up individual ownership of land or houses or things, that would still allow for individualism and the exercise of differing gifts and talents and desires...

The almost extinct hunter gatherer societies are generally great examples of "early" socialism. It must have worked for 100,000s of years otherwise we wouldn't be here as a plague upon the Earth.

[Moonfish]

Ah go formicate yourself!

Actually, ants are considerably more successful than humans from a biological perspective...

[North Star]

Actually, ants are considerably more successful than humans from a biological perspective...

At least they produce much more formic acid than the chemical industry.

[Moonfish]

At least they produce much more formic acid than the chemical industry.

And considerable less pollution...   

[North Star]

And considerable less pollution...   

And fewer, and less, of petrochemicals.

[Ken B]

Looks like you and I are the only "cosmopolitan liberals" here Florestan. Sigh.

We know prehistory was vastly more violent and murderous than the 20 th century. We know that " common property" stopped at the tribe's edge, and we know humans stayed short-lived, disease ridden, and poor for most of history. Yet even someone as educated as Peter writes of it as a golden age. 

Sorry Moonfish, but twaddle is twaddle.  Slavery was around a long time too.

And no CDs!