Focus on recordings interferes with music appreciation?

[DavidRoss]

My slight return (Voodoo Chile or not) to GMG a few days ago has prompted some reflection on this forum's influence on my listening experience:

After participating here for several years, I became habituated to listening analytically, with the constraining hammer of intellect seeking nails of nuance in interpretation and execution with which to frame a Critical Judgment about the performance at hand in comparison with all other performances, recorded and live, lodged in the murky vaults of memory.

I couldn't listen to a Mahler symphony, for instance, without being interrupted by thoughts like, "That's not how Bernstein did it" or "Bertini was a bit perfunctory here" or "Wish this were Barbirolli" or even, "I wonder what Sarge and Jens would think of this one...."

Yet, happily, after a year's hiatus, I recently found myself trundling along farm roads through the countryside on my homeward commute, listening to Danielle Gatti and the RPO's recording of Mahler's 5th, without once considering whether the scherzo was better served by Gielen, MTT, or Boulez (it's not).  A year ago I loaded Abbey Simon's Ravel into the CD deck of the new car and haven't yet felt the need to swap it out for Bavouzet, Hewitt, or Rogé, despite a 60 mile round trip commute and two road trips with my wife.  And just last week, when a leisurely stroll on a lovely summer morning prompted me to hear Beethoven's 6th on returning home, I just grabbed a box off the shelf and was well into the thunderstorm before wondering why I'd grabbed Immerseel instead of Abbado, Brüggen, or Barenboim.

In short, my focus has returned to the simple joy of immersion in music that moves my soul, without regard to whether some other recording might be more "definitive" or if someone on the internet might take me to task for enjoying it ... or (most of all, perhaps?) without my attention wandering from the music itself to what I might say about it on the forum.

Consequently I have mixed feelings about resuming participation here.  Not only for the foregoing reason, of course, but it's a biggie, fer shure!

On the other hand, I've missed many friends here the past year and look forward to renewing our acquaintance, as well as to making some new friends, perhaps...?

Not to mention relishing the opportunity to strengthen my character by struggling to resist blowing the dust off my wallet in response to the dazzling display of shiny plastic discs demanding attention elsewhere on the site!

[Karl Henning]

In short, my focus has returned to the simple joy of immersion in music that moves my soul, without regard to whether some other recording might be more "definitive" or if someone on the internet might take me to task for enjoying it ... or (most of all, perhaps?) without my attention wandering from the music itself to what I might say about it on the forum.

That's great!  All that is in my power to help you sustain that, is at your service! 

The Mother of All Twists has taken residence in snypsss's knickers, over on the Shostakovich String Quartet thread;  and it has been interesting to read his travails, and yet remain constant in my own simple enjoyment of the Emersons 

[mn dave]

Yeah, I learned to just listen to what I want and to ignore the gluttony.

Not that there's anything wrong with that. 

[Florestan]

Yet, happily, after a year's hiatus, I recently found myself trundling along farm roads through the countryside on my homeward commute, listening to Danielle Gatti and the RPO's recording of Mahler's 5th, without once considering whether the scherzo was better served by Gielen, MTT, or Boulez (it's not).  A year ago I loaded Abbey Simon's Ravel into the CD deck of the new car and haven't yet felt the need to swap it out for Bavouzet, Hewitt, or Rogé, despite a 60 mile round trip commute and two road trips with my wife.  And just last week, when a leisurely stroll on a lovely summer morning prompted me to hear Beethoven's 6th on returning home, I just grabbed a box off the shelf and was well into the thunderstorm before wondering why I'd grabbed Immerseel instead of Abbado, Brüggen, or Barenboim.

In short, my focus has returned to the simple joy of immersion in music that moves my soul, without regard to whether some other recording might be more "definitive" or if someone on the internet might take me to task for enjoying it ... or (most of all, perhaps?) without my attention wandering from the music itself to what I might say about it on the forum.

That's how it should have been all the time. 

[Pat B]

I figured out pretty quickly that the point where I stop enjoying listening is the point where I start consciously thinking about what I'm going to write about it. So I don't do that. The consequence is that my posts are probably less interesting, and definitely less frequent, than some others'. But I'm perfectly happy with that trade-off.

YMMV of course.

Anyway, welcome back. I think you left around when I joined.

[Gurn Blanston]

I agree with the others, it's as it should be. Of course, these are people who, like me, believe the music is more important than the performer. I understand this is not everyone's meat, and don't want to deprive them, but even in the relatively rare occurrence of having more than one recording of a work, I rarely compare them, and usually don't care which of them I'm playing!  Different priorities, I guess. 

Anyway, good to see you back, if your psyche can stand it.

[mc ukrneal]

When you look at all the different recordings available, there are actually very few that are out and out bad and will not do the music justice. I'd guess in the range of 5-10% (but maybe even this is too high, there just aren't that many like this). This means that 90-95%+ of all recordings out there will give a pretty decent representation of the music and a good listening experience (if not much more). It can be fun to discuss the merits of various recordings, but if it turns out not to be fun then it's not worth doing. So keep on enjoying what you got, cause really, you didn't name a dud in the bunch!

[kishnevi]

The rationale for owning more than one recording of a work is, for me,  the idea that different performers will bring out different aspects of the work,  and that normally there is no single "best" performance.   Which is why I usually refer to "favorite" recordings, not "best" recordings.  The only deviation from this rule lies in objective factors, such as bad sonics, a singer with bad intonation or too much vibrato.  The rest is merely how much I relate to the work: how much it (or the performance) speaks to me, and for that analysis usually gets in the way, except as a post-listen review.   Which is why many of my reviews here are generalized comments, and determined by basic factors, not subtle nuances.  I like Chailly's Beethoven more than Karajan's  but that is because I subjectively like Chailly's approach more than Karajan's:  Chailly brings out aspects of the music that I relate to better than Karajan does.   But it's the overall result that is important to me,  not whether Chailly uses more or less rubato in the slow movement of the Fourth--if he uses it at all.

[Ken B]

I know the feeling. Actually this is a big advantage of the box glut, and cheaper recordings. One can stress less and just treat a recording as a performance, one of many possible. Especially important to cheapskates like me.

[EigenUser]

My slight return (Voodoo Chile or not) to GMG a few days ago has prompted some reflection on this forum's influence on my listening experience:

After participating here for several years, I became habituated to listening analytically, with the constraining hammer of intellect seeking nails of nuance in interpretation and execution with which to frame a Critical Judgment about the performance at hand in comparison with all other performances, recorded and live, lodged in the murky vaults of memory.

I couldn't listen to a Mahler symphony, for instance, without being interrupted by thoughts like, "That's not how Bernstein did it" or "Bertini was a bit perfunctory here" or "Wish this were Barbirolli" or even, "I wonder what Sarge and Jens would think of this one...."

Yet, happily, after a year's hiatus, I recently found myself trundling along farm roads through the countryside on my homeward commute, listening to Danielle Gatti and the RPO's recording of Mahler's 5th, without once considering whether the scherzo was better served by Gielen, MTT, or Boulez (it's not).  A year ago I loaded Abbey Simon's Ravel into the CD deck of the new car and haven't yet felt the need to swap it out for Bavouzet, Hewitt, or Rogé, despite a 60 mile round trip commute and two road trips with my wife.  And just last week, when a leisurely stroll on a lovely summer morning prompted me to hear Beethoven's 6th on returning home, I just grabbed a box off the shelf and was well into the thunderstorm before wondering why I'd grabbed Immerseel instead of Abbado, Brüggen, or Barenboim.

In short, my focus has returned to the simple joy of immersion in music that moves my soul, without regard to whether some other recording might be more "definitive" or if someone on the internet might take me to task for enjoying it ... or (most of all, perhaps?) without my attention wandering from the music itself to what I might say about it on the forum.

Consequently I have mixed feelings about resuming participation here.  Not only for the foregoing reason, of course, but it's a biggie, fer shure!

On the other hand, I've missed many friends here the past year and look forward to renewing our acquaintance, as well as to making some new friends, perhaps...?

Not to mention relishing the opportunity to strengthen my character by struggling to resist blowing the dust off my wallet in response to the dazzling display of shiny plastic discs demanding attention elsewhere on the site!

Where have you been all this time?? This is almost exactly how I feel. I appreciate your bringing it to attention!

Of course, having a good recording is important. For instance, if it weren't for the Boulez/Gawriloff/DG recording of the Ligeti violin concerto, I can't imagine myself really liking the piece very much.

But, there is so much music out there. It is much more fun for me to hear new things instead of new renditions of things I already know. Also, I try and appreciate the music on its own merit. I think that recordings are a way of delivering the composer's artistic intentions. A very practical thing, but still a translation.

[Holden]

Where have you been all this time?? This is almost exactly how I feel. I appreciate your bringing it to attention!

Of course, having a good recording is important. For instance, if it weren't for the Boulez/Gawriloff/DG recording of the Ligeti violin concerto, I can't imagine myself really liking the piece very much.

And this is also why I have more than one version of a work. I remember my first recording of the Dvorak 9 and wondering what the fuss was all about. Just a piece of music by some Czech composer. Then I heard Fricsay and I was convinced

[Ken B]

Where have you been all this time?? This is almost exactly how I feel. I appreciate your bringing it to attention!

Of course, having a good recording is important. For instance, if it weren't for the Boulez/Gawriloff/DG recording of the Ligeti violin concerto, I can't imagine myself really liking the piece very much.

But, there is so much music out there. It is much more fun for me to hear new things instead of new renditions of things I already know. Also, I try and appreciate the music on its own merit. I think that recordings are a way of delivering the composer's artistic intentions. A very practical thing, but still a translation.

The mistake here is assuming that you know the piece from one rendition.

[EigenUser]

The mistake here is assuming that you know the piece from one rendition.

Which is why I enjoy listening with a score to reference. This way you can be sure that what you are hearing is what you are supposed to be hearing.

[Florestan]

I know the feeling. Actually this is a big advantage of the box glut, and cheaper recordings. One can stress less and just treat a recording as a performance, one of many possible. Especially important to cheapskates like me.

A big +1.

[71 dB]

My slight return (Voodoo Chile or not) to GMG a few days ago...

Welcome back! 

In short, my focus has returned to the simple joy of immersion in music that moves my soul, without regard to whether some other recording might be more "definitive" or if someone on the internet might take me to task for enjoying it ... or (most of all, perhaps?) without my attention wandering from the music itself to what I might say about it on the forum.

Well this forum (all classical music forums?) has a strange impact. I also miss the times when I just enjoyed a Telemann Recorder Suite on radio without reading any comments about different Telemann recordings online.

I used to buy Naxos if available and if not, then something else. I had no clue about who are the best performers. It was simple. I used to have only one performance of everything except some duplications when the Harmonia Mundi disc had the same filler the naxos had.

Then I registered to GMG in 2006 I believe. Sometimes I think I shoudn't have. There are pros and cons being here. The first thing that happened was I lost my self-esteem. Before GMG I felt I know a lot about classical music. Today I know much more than 10 years ago, but I feel I know next to nothing. I have always had problems with self-esteem because I am so weird, rejected, misundertood peewee. Classical music was something that improved my self-esteem. I'm not athletic, handsome, tall or strong but at least I understand Bach's counterpoint, something most people will never understand. Here I understood I don't really know much. It was all an illusion. Even if I feel myself being good at something it doesn't not matter "in real life", because what counts is how other people value you.

So, the foundation of my self-esteem destroyed I just need to except myself as I am. Follow the mantra of Kesha. I want to thank Andolink for his trust on my capabilities and asking me to design and construct him a crossfeeder. That was a very pleasant project and it boosted my self-esteem quite a lot.  There is something I am good at - crossfeeders and the understanding of spatial distortion! So, pros and cons. Heavy ones I might say.

My recent thread "How does one have time to explore" was a sign of my frustration and anxiety this forum can create. Maybe we should stop telling each other how everyone just HAS TO get the OOP disc that sells for 100 dollars on Amazon Marketplace. I enjoy (classical) music most when I can do it my way, living inside my own illusions.

I'm exploring Alban Berg at the moment and I am doing it my way! 

[Madiel]

The mistake here is assuming that you know the piece from one rendition.

The further mistake is perhaps thinking that one needs to really 'know the piece' to enjoy listening to it.

To be honest, knowing the piece, in the sense of being familiar with the score, just tends to make me more picky. I have a far harder time listening to some of the piano pieces that I know well from having learned to play them myself, precisely because I have specific views about how specific moments should sound. There's an argument that a degree of ignorance is bliss.

[Ken B]

The further mistake is perhaps thinking that one needs to really 'know the piece' to enjoy listening to it.

To be honest, knowing the piece, in the sense of being familiar with the score, just tends to make me more picky. I have a far harder time listening to some of the piano pieces that I know well from having learned to play them myself, precisely because I have specific views about how specific moments should sound. There's an argument that a degree of ignorance is bliss.

Yes. Nate said another very odd thing. He uses the score to be sure he is hearing what he is supposed to hear. That word supposed. I think when I hear Nikoleyevna interpret Shosty preludes and fugues I am supposed to hear her idea just as I am supposed to hear the score, and the same when Ashkenazy plays it. One thing I like so much about Bach is he seems to afford great scope for the players to bring something.

[North Star]

Yes. Nate said another very odd thing. He uses the score to be sure he is hearing what he is supposed to hear. That word supposed. I think when I hear Nikoleyevna interpret Shosty preludes and fugues I am supposed to hear her idea just as I am supposed to hear the score, and the same when Ashkenazy plays it. One thing I like so much about Bach is he seems to afford great scope for the players to bring something.

Interpretors usually have room to interpret, but there can be liberties that are not in the spirit of the score, ignoring tempo or dynamic markings, or adding excessive rubato or dynamic changes. And then of course the musician(s) might play wrong notes, or leave out a note, or mess the rhythm of a phrase. And it's also handy to know if what he hears is in the score, or in the interpretation when it works, too.

[Brahmsian]

In short, my focus has returned to the simple joy of immersion in music that moves my soul, without regard to whether some other recording might be more "definitive" or if someone on the internet might take me to task for enjoying it ... or (most of all, perhaps?) without my attention wandering from the music itself to what I might say about it on the forum.

Welcome back, David!!

That is the most important thing. 

[Florestan]

And then of course the musician(s) might play wrong notes, or leave out a note, or mess the rhythm of a phrase.

So what? After all, they're humans just like the rest of us and they make mistakes. Personally, I'd rather have someone playing Chopin with mistakes but poetically, than some robot playing Chopin exactly like in the score.   

In respect to Dave's OP, the "blind comparison" threads are very instructive. The main two lessons I've learned from them are:

(1) very few of the participants, if any at all, can positively identify a recording, and
(2) many of them are surprised by their favorite recording's, or the recording's they grew up with, being eliminated in the first round, not infrequently by their own vote.