classical music and "elitism"

[chadfeldheimer]

Like everything also classical music has it's negative aspects. One of those aspects I think is the elitism, which associated with it. From my point of view there are at least 4 different kinds of elitism:

1.  I can only speak about the situation in Germany, but here I feel that classical music or attending to classical music events is still used by some people to show their status as part of the upperclass.
There are many events where ordinary mortals have only little access to, e.g. opening events at classical festivals like the Wagner-festival in Bayreuth or the Salzburg festival. I have the impression
that quite a portion of the people that attend to those events, come rather for the social event but for the music itself. Generally I would say classical music is still associated with the upperclass as
opposed to rock- and pop-music (in Germany particularly Schlagermusic - very simple songs with texts that exclude everything even approximately problematic in the world) that I think is still rather
associated with the working class.

2. Similar to the point above regarding the upperclass, classical music is also used by some people to show their status as being part of the academic elite (<> working class, like with the upperclass).

3. Classical music is used by music snobs to show off their superior taste in music. Those people despise others for their taste in music.I think you can find snobism among fans of all kinds of musical
genres (for example rock-snobs may consider themselves as particularly cool, rebellious and maybe also youthful at heart), but classical music snobs are perhaps particularly confident of their superiority.
Musical snobism is also involved, when composers of a specific category of classical music distance themselves from other categories of classical music. A famous example would be the arrogance some
serialist composers like Pierre Boulez showed to composeres of the more traditional type.     

4. Classical music is a national status-symbol. This is perhaps the most unsympathetic and in history most destructive kind of elitism associated with classical music. The most famous example is the
propagandized superiority of German music (with Wagner being on the top) in the 3rd Reich. But also before there was a connection between classical music and nationalism. Schönberg e.g. said about
his 12-tone system it will ensure the superiority of German music for the next 100 years and Debussy is reported to have been a strong nationalist who wanted to compose for the pride of the French nation.
Fortunately that kind of musical snobism diminished a bit in the time after the 2nd world war.

How do you think about this topic? Are there other kinds of elitism, that are coming to your mind?

[Harry]

I think this sums up the status of classical music in the whole of western Europe. In the Netherlands its more or less the same.
The distinction and visibility falls away when only ordering music through internet. I stopped going to concerts a long time ago, apart from 3 years ago when friends of mine tricked me into a Wagner extravaganza. Still have trauma's about that. Come to think of it, coming Monday is my birthday, so I will go into hiding me thinks.

[chadfeldheimer]

Elitism / elites is like some awful dirty word that gets bandied around by politically correct automatons. My perspective is that if it weren't for elites, we'd all be in the gutter, except there wouldn't be a gutter to be in because cause the idea of a gutter quite probably originated from an elite.

Don't get me wrong. I am not against competition and not an advocate of egalitarianism, but I feel there are people, that don't really love classical, but use e.g. classical events to show off their social status, superior taste or their nationalism. Perhaps you have a word better than elitism. I'm not a native English speaker and may not find the right word here.

[chadfeldheimer]

I think this sums up the status of classical music in the whole of western Europe. In the Netherlands its more or less the same.
The distinction and visibility falls away when only ordering music through internet.

I agree the internet definitely has a positive influence on the situation.

I stopped going to concerts a long time ago, apart from 3 years ago when friends of mine tricked me into a Wagner extravaganza. Still have trauma's about that. Come to think of it, coming Monday is my birthday, so I will go into hiding me thinks.

I also feel a bit uncomfortable at some of those events. Maybe it is not only the elitism but also the different milieu, I have to acclimate with. However for me the music mostly compensates for that. Still with maybe only 3-times per year, I'm not the biggest classical concert goer.

[chadfeldheimer]

Phonies.

Yes those people are phonies, but it is a very special kind of phonies, you meet at classical music events, I think as a negative consequence of elitism.

[Jo498]

What would be the alternative?
Classical music on radio broadcasts, youtube etc. is free and even CDs are cheaper than ever before.
So in a sense classical music is there for everybody to enjoy very cheaply.

Concerts are not so cheap, but in Germany (and Austria and probably elsewhere in Europe) classical concerts and especially opera are already financed by everybodies taxes. If that were not the case, there would be fewer and they'd be much more expensive. Overall they are usually cheaper than rock star concerts or fancy musicals (like the Hamburg "Cats") If we scare away the (economical) "elite", even if some of them are ignorant fools, what would we gain?

I do not think the national status symbol aspect of CM is so important anymore (except in Austria, because they suck at soccer...)

So while you may be right in some respects, I think that Classical Music is so marginalized that it doesn't even work well as a status marker nowadays (much better use your car, your watch, your last holiday, your summer home). A lot of the most avid fans are probably musicians, students, teachers who are often barely middle class, economically speaking.

And as you point out there is also snobbish behavior by fans of popular music, defending their narrow niche against other stuff which is supposedly commercialized charts trash or whatever.

Because I do not live in/near a big city I go to very few classical concerts (I am too poor to travel a lot for classical music). But in my impression that the audiences of the concert I have been to has been quite mixed/diverse.

[chadfeldheimer]

To prevent misunderstandings regarding the word elitism. I accept or even like if somebody is good at something, e.g. has a good job and earns a lot of money or is a superb musician or an expert on a specific subject. Maybe those people belong to a specific elite. This however does not make them superior to others in general. The field they are good in is not life as a whole, but only a specific field.

[Mirror Image]

My feeling about elitism is simple: if someone wants to act like a pompous ass then by all means let them do it. At the end of the day, this attitude will only reflect poorly on them.

[chadfeldheimer]

What would be the alternative?
Classical music on radio broadcasts, youtube etc. is free and even CDs are cheaper than ever before.
So in a sense classical music is there for everybody to enjoy very cheaply.

I agree the availability of CM is better than ever before. At least for home-listening.

Concerts are not so cheap, but in Germany (and Austria and probably elsewhere in Europe) classical concerts and especially opera are already financed by everybodies taxes. If that were not the case, there would be fewer and they'd be much more expensive. Overall they are usually cheaper than rock star concerts or fancy musicals (like the Hamburg "Cats") If we scare away the (economical) "elite", even if some of them are ignorant fools, what would we gain?

Yes - the prices are quite ok. Don't get me wrong. I'm no socialist and don't want to scare away the (economical) "elite". I only think it is a characteristic of CM music, that it is used by (maybe small) parts of the (economical) "elite" for showing off.

I do not think the national status symbol aspect of CM is so important anymore (except in Austria, because they suck at soccer...)

Agreed. It diminished more than just a bit.

So while you may be right in some respects, I think that Classical Music is so marginalized that it doesn't even work well as a status marker nowadays (much better use your car, your watch, your last holiday, your summer home).

I agree there are many other (maybe more important) status-symbols nowadays, but these would be better suited for a car-, yacht or whatever-forum.

A lot of the most avid fans are probably musicians, students, teachers who are often barely middle class, economically speaking.

That would be the academic or "intellectual" elite I wrote about. Beeing an academic myself I'm not against academics, however I know some, that really think they are better than non-academics and
have specific sign to show it. One of those sign can be attending at classical music events.

And as you point out there is also snobbish behavior by fans of popular music, defending their narrow niche against other stuff which is supposedly commercialized charts trash or whatever.

Right.

Because I do not live in/near a big city I go to very few classical concerts (I am too poor to travel a lot for classical music). But in my impression that the audiences of the concert I have been to has been quite mixed/diverse.

From my experience it depends on the events. At some events the audience is quite mixed, at others not so much.

[Jo498]

Of course I think that I have better taste in music than most other people and I am probably also smarter and better educated and more knowledgeable than about 90% of them. I am not advertising these facts and they do not make me a morally better or happier person (although I would be rather unhappy if I could not enjoy classical music, now that I know that I enjoy it so much). As I do not get any special treatment anyway it would not help me a lot either. It's still true...

What do we mean with elitism? Isn't it that once you are "inside" some circle you have lots of unfair advantages that are not directly connected to your abilities (or that your abilities are rewarded completely out of proportion? the latter of course happens in capitalism anyway).
Of course I deplore the parade of prominent idiots, politicians and show biz people in Bayreuth. And I guess many of them get the tickets for free. I am against such socialism for the rich. I also deplore that people might therefore think that Wagner or CM in general is only for the upper class.

But this does not mean that I have to deny that Wagner's music is truly in a different class than e.g. Lord Lloyd Webber's. If that means I am an elitist, so be it.

I think we should expend more effort to get CM "to the people", beginning in primary school. But we are already doing quite a bit. It's just that today's popular culture (lots of which I truly detest) is extremely powerful, omnipresent and not conducive to a broad appreciation of classical music. Just think attention spans, immediate rewards, complexity etc.

[ritter]

This is an interesting, albeit tricky, subject. First of all, I'd say we might be confusing two terms: elitism and snobbery. Elitism per se is not necessarily bad, as I get the impression more and more that (almost) anyone is or wishes to be part of an elite: a monetary elite, an intellectual elite, an athletic elite, or even a "trashy" elite (nostalgie de la boue)... A certain yearning to stand out from the "others", and simultaneously belonging to a "select group" of people, is something that may be inherent to mankind (at least in the western world)...

Although the official definition of snobbery coincides very much with what I've described above, I would call a snob someone who frequents people (or, in our case, artistic events) not for themselves, but rather for what they represent or because they think those people (o events) will help him or her stand out from the rest. It's a small nuance, I grant, but an important one.

Chadfeldheimer mentioned Bayreuth, among other events, in his initial post. I was at Bayreuth this summer (for the third time), and took my children, aged 23 and 20 (their first visit). We attended performances of the controversial but impressive Petrenko-Castorf Ring (the second cycle). What can I say about the audience? Well, it was varied. Yes, there were German and international representatives of the "leisurely class", there were classical music "freaks", but there seemed to be a vast majority of people who, at a considerable expense and with long trips behind them, were there to enjoy the work of Wagner performed under very special conditions in a very special theatre. Most of these people dress up for the occasion, but this only shows (I think) their desire to dress accordingly to what the "festival" component of Bayreuth ("die festliche Aufführung der Werke Richard Wagners") represents--the "sense of occasion", and most of them were delighted by the "workshop" ("Werkstatt Bayreuth") aspect of this festival (regardless of whether a particular production and performance was of their liking or not).

But I did encounter one case of extreme "snobbery". A fellow Spaniard, involved in the (inevitably limited) operatic scene of his hometown, was at the festival for the first time (on a journalistic assignment). In the long intermissions, in which most people mingle and chat, and exchange impressions on the performance, etc., this gentleman's demeanour clearly showed he wasn't enjoying himself. Back in Spain, this gentleman published a piece that, in a nutshell, came to say that Bayreuth wasn't really that special, that the singing was third-rate, the productions revolting, and that most people were there for an alleged "pilgrimage" to the Green Hill. Furthermore, according to him, those who complained of the legendary heat inside the theatre simply did so, because they were overdressed: dispense of your jackets, and everything sill be OK (he was dressed in slacks and a polo shirt). This online article incensed me: to come form the Spanish provinces, and try to demolish the "myth" of Bayreuth (without understanding, IMO, what the place is all about), in order to show how knowledgeable and "cool" you are, is the maximum degree of snobbery I can think of.

I apologize for the length of my two cents worth... 

Regards,

[ritter]

I understand your point, James, but I think you are referring to pepole professionally involved with music. Unless I am mistaken, the discussion was focusing on (real or alleged) music lovers, i.e. audiences, and my comment you quote was just extending this to the broader society...

Regards,

[ritter]

Yes I know, but it doesn't work that way. Either you really, really love something OR you seek to be seen. These are 2 very different things. Different goals, different intents, different motivations.

That I can't agree with...it's not black or white...there's a lot of gray in between. You might want to explore something you're not passionate (or knowledgeable) about just for the sake of broadening your horizons and getting exposed to things your not familiar with...and that doesn't make you a snob. Once I had to say of myself (in another context) that I am not a musician, I am not a musicologist, I am not even an intellectual; I just aspire to be a cultivated man (who happens to be passionate about music and other arts).

Your saying that "you either love something or you seek to be seen" could be interpreted as the most extreme kind of elitism..

[71 dB]

I feel there are people, that don't really love classical, but use e.g. classical events to show off their social status, superior taste or their nationalism. Perhaps you have a word better than elitism. I'm not a native English speaker and may not find the right word here.

Yes, I suppose there are such people, but so what? Those people know Wagner, but they don't have a clue about Tunder or Finzi. In their case classical music is just a tool for elitism.

[chadfeldheimer]

Because of the ambiguities respective elitism I let me define it (this may differ from other definitions - I just want to be understood and do not have the approach to be scientifically correct) as a exaggerated awareness in respect of social hierarchies (not only economical, but also intellectual and regarding ancestry), accompanied by a superiority complex and a exaggerated impulse to show respective status symbols. I think that classical music is sometimes used as symbol to show ones membership to  a specific class (upperclass, intellectual elite, taste-elite, nationality ..). I would would call somebody an elitist if his main reason for attending e.g. a classical music event is to show off his status and not to actually to enjoy the music.

In my very own definition elitism is not the ambition to create something particular beautiful (like a composer, that is true to himself) or to learn passionate about your favorite topic (as a music expert, that is only satisfying his thirst of knowledge).

I agree elitism and snobism are quite similar. I thought elitism might be better in respect to social or intellectual class consciousness and snobism in respect to musical taste.

Maybe everyone has something of an elitist or a snob, however I would only call a people an elitist or snob, if elitism or snobism is really a dominant characteristic of that person.

[chadfeldheimer]

Yes, I suppose there are such people, but so what? Those people know Wagner, but they don't have a clue about Tunder or Finzi. In their case classical music is just a tool for elitism.

I agree in their case classical music is only a tool, but it is one that is quite frequently used.

[chadfeldheimer]

You've lost track of the topic here. We were essentially talking about elitism as it pertains to the field of music, and the type of people it can attract. Classical music events can attract (and even advertise to) a lot of folks who want to appear cultured, apart of a musical elite .. but they don't really know or care about the music at all. For them, the most important thing - is to be seen. To what extent this occurs these days, I don't know .. but it is something chad has observed to certain extent, and it is a stereotype too. What I was saying goes right to the heart of the matter .. either a person has superior abilities or they don't. True elitism. If they do .. then this would set them apart from the rest, garner attention, put them into a special (elite) category etc. And these things aren't the goal, motivation or intent of their actions ..  those things are often consequences of a lot of hard work that gets noticed. What you were describing earlier has nothing to do with being an elite. You (& chad) were describing folks that want to be seen .. there is a difference between that and what I have been saying. If you want to be a cultivated man, that's fine .. but that has nothing to do with elitism either, and it doesn't put a person into an elite category.

If I understand you right then a person that is part of a specific elite is also an elitist. I don't think that's right. There are for example superb composers (part of the composers-elite) that nevertheless stayed modest and do not feel themselves superior at all (as a human being, as a composer of course they must feel superior if they are true to themselves and others). I' think György Kurtág is one of those composers, I would not call an elitist.

[ritter]

Simply the notion that someone has to have "superior abilities" to genuinely enjoy classical music (or any other art form) is completely foreign to me, and has an exclusive tinge that, in my opinion, is detrimental to the art form.

Looking at it from another perspective: classical music no longer "socially elevates" its audience, as it would have done 100 years ago. The moneyed international elite (in most of Europe, at least) is much more likely  to be seen skiing in Courchevel, clubbing and yachting in Ibiza, and golfing in Scotland, than attending a performance of Don Giovanni in Salzburg or travelling to Birmingham for the première of Mittwoch aus Licht. As a matter of fact, an interest in the arts in general, and in classical music in particular, is almost frowned upon as old-fashioned, uncool and boring (boredom being a capital sin in this society). Even the opera, which until not that long ago was the social occasion to "see and be seen", and appear cultured at the same time, has lost much of its allure in that respect (with few exceptions, like the opening of Bayreuth mentioned by Chad or, locally here in Madrid, when the previous Queen--a genuine music lover-- attended a performance at the Teatro Real).

The vast majority of people that attend concerts here are just ordinary people with a passion for music (albeit with widely diverging tastes, usually on the conservative side), and that usually display real enthusiasm for this art form. The least they need is to be frowned upon not only by those who think they are démodé, but also by those who believe that you must have something special to enjoy Beethoven or Boulez.

[chadfeldheimer]

Simply the notion that someone has to have "superior abilities" to genuinely enjoy classical music (or any other art form) is completely foreign to me, and has an exclusive tinge that, in my opinion, is detrimental to the art form.

Totally agree with you.

Looking at it from another perspective: classical music no longer "socially elevates" its audience, as it would have done 100 years ago. The moneyed international elite (in most of Europe, at least) is much more likely  to be seen skiing in Courchevel, clubbing and yachting in Ibiza, and golfing in Scotland, than attending a performance of Don Giovanni in Salzburg or travelling to Birmingham for the première of Mittwoch aus Licht. As a matter of fact, an interest in the arts in general, and in classical music in particular, is almost frowned upon as old-fashioned, uncool and boring (boredom being a capital sin in this society). Even the opera, which until not that long ago was the social occasion to "see and be seen", and appear cultured at the same time, has lost much of its allure in that respect (with few exceptions, like the opening of Bayreuth mentioned by Chad or, locally here in Madrid, when the previous Queen--a genuine music lover-- attended a performance at the Teatro Real).

The vast majority of people that attend concerts here are just ordinary people with a passion for music (albeit with widely diverging tastes, usually on the conservative side), and that usually display real enthusiasm for this art form. The least they need is to be frowned upon not only by those who think they are démodé, but also by those who believe that you must have something special to enjoy Beethoven or Boulez.

So you think the cliche of the classical music snob or elitist does not hold true anymore and does rather refer to the situation of the past, right?

[ritter]

So you think the cliche of the classical music snob or elitist does not hold true anymore and does rather refer to the situation of the past, right?

In general, yes. I don't know Germany that well, but here in Spain the snobs will much rather flaunt their wealth and show off their supposed connaisseurship on contemporary art (which has a tangible market value and does not require you to sit through the torture of 5 hours of Meistersinger  ) than on music. The contemporary art fair ARCO is a must of the social calendar, a premiere at the Teatro Real most definitely is not.

Even in the corporate world this applies: I work for a very important financial institution, which, as could be expected, sponsors all kinds of things. A corporate invitation to a major sporting event is very sought after among clients or counterparties. If you invited them to a classical concert, they might accept out of politeness, but would go only reluctantly (with exceptions, obviously).