classical music and "elitism"

[ZauberdrachenNr.7]

Notions of elitism give birth to some peculiar progeny.  I dated a woman (for a short time) who firmly believed that no one really liked classical music - it was all for show and social status.  Her preferred tunesmith?:  Rod Stewart.  Which made me laugh because I also had a German prof. who maintained that no one really liked rock music, it was all for gaining peer acceptance, she maintained.

[Florestan]

It's an Italian genre, and has always (or, since Verdi, certainly) had an of the people vibe.

Di tanti palpiti from Rossini´s Tancredi was an instant hit. In Venice it was even sang by the audience in courts of law. 

Opera is actually (or certainly was until Wagner) the least elitist of genres, especially in the Italian States. In the numerous Venetian and Neapolitan opera houses people of all classes and trades rubbed shoulders without any affectation or snobbery. Then came Wagner and everything changed --- for the worse. 

[Karl Henning]

Tangentially, Carlos Williams's remark: "T.S. Eliot gave poetry back to the academics — the damned fool."

[Jo498]

Notions of elitism give birth to some peculiar progeny.  I dated a woman (for a short time) who firmly believed that no one really liked classical music - it was all for show and social status.  Her preferred tunesmith?:  Rod Stewart.  Which made me laugh because I also had a German prof. who maintained that no one really liked rock music, it was all for gaining peer acceptance, she maintained.

Wonderful stories, both!

Probably someone smarter than me has done this already, but I'd really like to write an essay "Against Nothingbutism" one day. From postmodern criticism to scientific/reductionist "debunking" of all kinds of traditional or common sense conceptions there is an all too frequent fallacy that the mere possibility of alternative explanations does suffice to "debunk" something. It does not.
That we are made out of quarks does not mean we are nothing but quarks. That some people use classical music to show status and be pompous pr*cks does not mean that classical music does not have very special qualities that may take some training, experience and sensitivity to appreciate etc.

[Jo498]

That's what 'elitism' is; not the appreciation of something special, but the sense of superiority over others which some people derive from it.

When my grandmother was a school girl, almost 100 years ago, girls used to do adages or short bible verses in embroidery to show their capabilities in fine stitching and needlework. Your sentence is a bit long, but this really would deserve such a treatment!

In that vein, and I say this based on hundreds of posts and communications with people over the years here, if we took a poll, how many people here actually feel 'different' in a positive way because of their love for classical music, or if they feel different in a negative way because modern society doesn't particularly esteem their passion the way it did even 50 years ago? 
You can only be 'elite' if society grants you that status, you can't grant it to yourself.

Yeah, it is more probable to be considered a nerdy outlier than "elite" in any meaningful way...

[Gurn Blanston]

Notions of elitism give birth to some peculiar progeny.  I dated a woman (for a short time) who firmly believed that no one really liked classical music - it was all for show and social status.  Her preferred tunesmith?:  Rod Stewart.  Which made me laugh because I also had a German prof. who maintained that no one really liked rock music, it was all for gaining peer acceptance, she maintained.

That's funny: I was told the same thing by a co-worker: "You don't really like that Scheiß, you just want people to think you are smarter than them". Which defines elitism quite nicely, despite the fact he was wrong on at least two counts.

[Gurn Blanston]

When my grandmother was a school girl, almost 100 years ago, girls used to do adages or short bible verses in embroidery to show their capabilities in fine stitching and needlework. Your sentence is a bit long, but this really would deserve such a treatment!

Live by the aphorism, die by the aphorism...

Yeah, it is more probable to be considered a nerdy outlier than "elite" in any meaningful way...

Exactly what I think. Nerdy outlier.

[Florestan]

That's funny: I was told the same thing by a co-worker: "You don't really like that Scheiß, you just want people to think you are smarter than them".

Which brings us to the delicate topic of reverted snobbery. That co-worker of yours felt himself very important and cool for ¨debunking¨ you. He swallowed the fashionable anti-elitist and anti-intellectualist propaganda but he never for a moment questioned its validity, let alone try to ¨debunk¨ it too. Elitism is bad, ignorance is bliss.

[Gurn Blanston]

Which brings us to the delicate topic of reverted snobbery. That co-worker of yours felt himself very important and cool for ¨debunking¨ you. He swallowed the fashionable anti-elitist and anti-intellectualist propaganda but he never for a moment questioned its validity, let alone try to ¨debunk¨ it too. Elitism is bad, ignorance is bliss.

Yes, well it didn't take any effort at all on my part to debunk him. He conferred elite status on me simply by implying I thought I must be.    "Elitism is bad, ignorance is bliss"  Yes, sadly, this is what the world is coming too. Can anything, seriously, be worse than anti-intellectualism? We might as well leave it to the chimps then... *sigh*

[Jaakko Keskinen]

if we took a poll, how many people here actually feel 'different' in a positive way because of their love for classical music, or if they feel different in a negative way because modern society doesn't particularly esteem their passion the way it did even 50 years ago? 

I was bullied in high school because I liked to sing opera. This one guy even broke my nose. Now granted singing opera to yourself in public can be bit weird (I'm slightly autistic so that was probably one of the reasons I did that, after the excessive bullying I grew out of it) but that still felt pretty bad.

[Karl Henning]

Yes, well it didn't take any effort at all on my part to debunk him. He conferred elite status on me simply by implying I thought I must be.

And people who talk thus just don't get that they have no basis for decrees like "you cannot like that."  Born to bloviate . . . .

[Cato]

I was bullied in high school because I liked to sing opera. This one guy even broke my nose. Now granted singing opera to yourself in public can be bit weird (I'm slightly autistic so that was probably one of the reasons I did that, after the excessive bullying I grew out of it) but that still felt pretty bad.

Give me a name and an address, and I will "take care" of the guy for you!   

[Florestan]

I was bullied in high school because I liked to sing opera. This one guy even broke my nose. Now granted singing opera to yourself in public can be bit weird (I'm slightly autistic so that was probably one of the reasons I did that, after the excessive bullying I grew out of it) but that still felt pretty bad.

That´s the typical reaction of ignorants when confronted with something that far surpasses their limited understanding: to destroy, either symbolically or physically, what doesn´t fit into their worldview, first and foremost on their long list of grievances being the pursuit of, and interest in, matters intellectual or fine arts . The nose-breaker had the excuse of being just a kid (and still...), but the problem is there are lots of fully grown adults who display the same feature and a problem greater still is that many journalists, politicians and other socially influential people seem to enocurage such behavior in the name of a misguided egalitarianism and common-man-ism.

[Jaakko Keskinen]

Thank you for your sympathies. There was an arbitration, the parents of the bully offered some ridiculously small amount of money as compensation but that didn't even cover medical expences. I certainly never got a penny. But hey, that's life. 

[Karl Henning]

"Not even covering the medical expense" is disgraceful.

[Florestan]

"Not even covering the medical expense" is disgraceful.

+ 1

[Gurn Blanston]

His reaction was a bit extreme, and their are deeper issues going on there clearly .. but mostly on the latter half of your statement it is met with general indifference, and a view that you are being elitist, pretentious etc. It is really hard to have a decent/normal conversation in a lot of situations when folks just don't have the depth/experience that you do in a particular area (say Music), normally I just stay out of it, and they wax poetic about pop entertainers & celebrities ...

A not unwise course of action...

[Florestan]

His reaction was a bit extreme, and their are deeper issues going on there clearly .. but mostly on the latter half of your statement it is met with general indifference, and a view that you are being elitist, pretentious etc. It is really hard to have a decent/normal conversation in a lot of situations when folks just don't have the depth/experience that you do in a particular area (say Music), normally I just stay out of it, and they wax poetic about pop entertainers & celebrities ...

Yes, but indifference is just a form of symbolical destruction: what one doesn´t care about, doesn´t exist. 

Staying out of it is of course the wisest option.

[Mirror Image]

you come off like a douche in most cases.

It's too bad that in your own case you are a 'douche'. I've said it before and I'll say it again, you really need to learn how to talk to people and get your nose out of the air. You're no better than anyone else, James.

[Florestan]

A lot of times I'm just blunt & direct about it. You're dealing with people (either young or old) that are stuck in their own narrow circuits of thinking, and a lot of it is a herd & trend oriented mentality that they are fed.

Exactly. Swift´s wise words are very pertinent in their case: Reasoning will never make a man correct an ill opinion, which by reasoning he never acquired...