classical music and "elitism"

[Gurn Blanston]

I'm not so sure, maybe true in some cases but there are all kinds of intelligent people out there, in all areas .. and I think that there is a time & place for intelligent discussion with like minded individuals .. in a lot of cases the context is inappropriate or doesn't facilitate it. But if you search for that kind of stimulation, it can be found.

Easier for some, of course. Life is a series of choices, and if those involve isolation from the larger segment of society, then the tradeoff is having to turn to this (blessed!) alternative, the Internet. Not a lot of call for expertise in Classic Era Viennese history here in the bush...

[Karl Henning]

Haydn-like isolation, we might say.

[Gurn Blanston]

Haydn-like isolation, we might say.

...forced to be original...  0:)

[Sammy]

Certainly so. Which is why I, and others of like mind, tend to express ourselves here, rather than out in public, unless we are in a known Nerdist hangout, like the Pizza Shoppe over at The U., or the Game Room in Karl's basement... 

First it's MI's basement, now it's Karl's basement.  I'm feeling left out; I don't even have a basement.

[Gurn Blanston]

Haydn-like isolation, we might say.

I thought you and John were Balakirev fans, Karl...

[Florestan]

I've always surmised that after adolescence years (when leisure-time and peer bonding is at it's highest, save for retirement years) cultural intake shuts down because life stuff takes over .. so most folks who live busy lives, career, family .. can only absorb what is easily accessed (mainstream culture within a narrow window). It is only the few passionate ones that stay with something and put in the work and time that is required for a deeper experience. And not everyone can be interested in the same things .. so for me, it's music in a deep way .. for another person it's sports, or cars, or gardening, cooking, travelling etc.

Well, sports, gardening, cooking and travelling can be as much eye-opening, character-building and personality-beneficial as music, literature and philosophy. Actually, if done properly, the former are even linked to the latter, as the Renaissance ideal (to which I subscribe in proportion to my very modest and limited intellectual and spiritual qualities) showed clearly, and of which a modern --- even postmodern -- version is given by Robert Heinlein

"A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects."

Besides. Building, sustaining and taking care of, one´s family and making it a functional and decent one is not the smallest, nor the less important, task facing a man --- on the contrary, it may be more difficult, more demanding and also more rewarding than deciphering the arcane mysteries of the Goldberg Variations. The other day I overheard on a television broadcast an Orthodox priest who is also a learned scholar saying something to the effect that it doesn´t matter how many philosophical tomes one reads (yet if one can do that, God bless him!); what really matters is how many persons one loves, and is ready to sacrifice his life for their sake. Now, can you think of anything more ¨elitist¨ than that in our ¨culture¨, built as it is on instant gratification of the egotistic whims and desires?
 

[Florestan]

I thought you and John were Balakirev fans, Karl...

Give me Haydn and two pints of beer and I shall move the world. 

[Florestan]

True. Being a parent is the hardest job in the world if you ask me.

Mon semblable, — mon frère!  

[Fagotterdämmerung]

  I'm thinking on the tangent of people only "pretending" to like classical music. Though I don't think I need to explain to this audience that that isn't always true, it is sometimes true. Often when it comes up that I enjoy classical, I'll get some "me too" responses that are totally insincere: people who want to be seen to like classical music, but can't name a single piece, composer, or performer they like. It's quite odd, because I know if I asked those same people "What are some of your favorite songs?" I'd have an avalanche of names.

  There are plenty of worthwhile pursuits I either have no interest in or know nothing about. I don't feel the need to go "Oh, me too!" if someone say they're into hydraulic engineering, beat poets, or slalom skiing, just because it would create a sense of commonality between us. Yet, this happens often with classical music.

[Gurn Blanston]

  I'm thinking on the tangent of people only "pretending" to like classical music. Though I don't think I need to explain to this audience that that isn't always true, it is sometimes true. Often when it comes up that I enjoy classical, I'll get some "me too" responses that are totally insincere: people who want to be seen to like classical music, but can't name a single piece, composer, or performer they like. It's quite odd, because I know if I asked those same people "What are some of your favorite songs?" I'd have an avalanche of names.

  There are plenty of worthwhile pursuits I either have no interest in or know nothing about. I don't feel the need to go "Oh, me too!" if someone say they're into hydraulic engineering, beat poets, or slalom skiing, just because it would create a sense of commonality between us. Yet, this happens often with classical music.

Maybe I will give them the benefit of the doubt and say they were trying to make you feel less isolated.... nah! The most common response I get from people of that sort is 'Oh, I love classical music, it is soooo relaxing!'.    Well, not for me!   

[Archaic Torso of Apollo]

   There are plenty of worthwhile pursuits I either have no interest in or know nothing about. I don't feel the need to go "Oh, me too!" if someone say they're into hydraulic engineering, beat poets, or slalom skiing, just because it would create a sense of commonality between us. Yet, this happens often with classical music.

I don't give a crap about professional sports. Yet when I express this, people are visibly taken aback.

In today's world, sports and pop culture are the real manifestations of religious feeling for most people.

[Ken B]

Actually I have to agree with James on this point. There are loads of people who would like to explore the arts, music etc., but the demands of job, family and so forth effectively preclude it.

Me too.

A telated example. Higher mathematics is in its way very beautiful. To be a mathematician you need to feel that (or else the discipline is arid). Few people can. It seems to me really bizarre to deny that those who understand higher math are a small dedicated bunch who see what others do not.

[Ken B]

I don't give a crap about professional sports. Yet when I express this, people are visibly taken aback.

In today's world, sports and pop culture are the real manifestations of religious feeling for most people.

I feel like I wandered over here just to echo Torso...

[Ken B]

Your Dad needs to see the difference between appreciation of the finer products of culture and snobbery about it.

I want to emphasize two things here.
1 this is an excellent comment.
2 it is what James has been saying.

[Szykneij]

"The toniest 'Man-Cave' in the Commonwealth." ~ The Boston Phoenix

I thought I had the tonyest man-cave in the Commonwealth ...     

[EigenUser]

You mean you just can't elegantly & concisely weave info from the vast Haydn database (which is your mind) into the latest at work Toby Keith or Taylor Swift conversation? I do it with my latest Stockhausen-fling all the time. It's a party. 

Most of my friends aren't classical music lovers, but they all know about Bartok, Ligeti, and Ravel (among others). A few of them have really taken to them, even -- especially Ligeti, for some reason. One of my best friends downloaded the entire Clear or Cloudy set and tells me that it comes up every now and again.

I'm lucky to have such patient friends.

[Karl Henning]

I thought I had the tonyest man-cave in the Commonwealth ...     

Weren't you Ptony with the silent P?

[Karl Henning]

Most of my friends aren't classical music lovers, but they all know about Bartok, Ligeti, and Ravel (among others). A few of them have really taken to them, even -- especially Ligeti, for some reason. One of my best friends downloaded the entire Clear or Cloudy set and tells me that it comes up every now and again.

I'm lucky to have such patient friends.

I actually find it not particularly unusual to be able to talk a bit about classical music with many friends and acquaintances (and even in social situations) for whom it is a relatively peripheral interest.  They're bright, and have a wide range of interests, and (the world of classical music being so rich) I always have things to say which they find of interest and even amusement.

The key is, simply, straight out of Social Skills 101:  keep an ear for what the other person is finding of interest, and forbear to go on at length, simply because you know a good deal about the topic; don't act as if the other guy "needs to be taught."

[Archaic Torso of Apollo]

I do however notice in media findings (especially out of Europe, and larger US cities) .. that there is a larger generation of younger folks (performers & listeners) who take-to or have been more raised on modern composers like Ligeti, Stockhausen, Xenakis .. as that music is more pertinent to the world they live in (of their time, or closer to it) making it easier to relate to .. and not so stereotypical of what "classical music" ought to sound-like.

This accords with my own experience. The largest number of young people are at concerts of contemporary (or at least modern) music. It helps that the format for modernist concerts tends to be more innovative and less formal. And once they catch the modern music bug, at least some of them explore further, into the past to see what led up to all those great new sounds.

[jochanaan]

...The most common response I get from people of that sort is 'Oh, I love classical music, it is soooo relaxing!'.    Well, not for me!   

I get that a lot too.  Usually an excerpt of Mahler is enough to get them at least to question that stereotype.

I tend to think, without any real evidence other than my own unique experience, that if anyone, anyone at all, just sat down and really listened to Bach, Beethoven, Mahler, Varese, or anyone we care to name, they'd fall in love with his/her work.  But we all know it just doesn't work that way.  Some folks just have no interest in exploring music they don't already know.  In that, they differ from us--yet they are just as valuable as persons.  Others have made a sincere effort to learn to like classical or contemporary-classical, and still don't get it.  I really can't condemn them any more than I can condemn many who lost interest in The Lord of the Rings after the first few chapters (while for me, it's about time to reread it for the 21st time ).

In that sense, classical music is not an art for everybody.  But is it by this rendered "elite"?