Haydn symphonies

[Wakefield]

Well, around 2000, in the Netherlands I had some discussions with fans AND members of Leusink's Holland Boys Choir who defended the lousy (IMHO) recordings of Bach's cantatas by claiming that Bach's own performance circumstances were lousy too and that he complained about the quality of his choristers, so: Leusink's performances were truly HIP and authentic.

I know this explanation -by fans and members of Leusink's troupe- can easily be ridiculed; but I think it would be better understood, if were expressed as: Bach's works never were thought or composed to be a "danty", lavish show.     

[Jo498]

I agree with you about this problem. Also, I don't know why, but symphony 81, which is truly admirable, is very rare on record.

Yes, the Orpheus almost wins by default here (I try to find their 79 for and affordable price). I do not remember much about Fischer's (he is rather good in some of the "70s", his weakest are 82-104 and a few early ones, generally he is much better with the works recorded later. The difference between e.g. 21 (very good) and 22 (meh, recorded much earlier) is striking. There is a Naxos 81 which is o.k., but not great (I do not know Dorati's).

About Solomons, I am thinking about finding the boxes released around 1990, I prefer to own them all

I believe there were even more on LP that never appeared on CD. I bid once or twice on Ebay on the 3-CD-boxes, but was not successful, so I basically try to forget about them. Supposedly the 45 and 48 are among the best of his recordings and I have those.
Unfortunately this stuff will never be reissued as physical discs, we can count ourselves lucky, if we get downloads.

I am somewhat surprised at the praise Kuijken gets. I think his 103/104 is very strong, but I was not so impressed by his Paris set. To save some space I threw out three Paris sets, although they were all pretty good: Kuijken, Weil and Wolf, because I found that for HIP Harnoncourt and maybe Brüggen were more interesting and for modern chamber orchestra I slightly preferred Marriner to Wolf.

Maybe I should revisit Kuijken and Weil in other pieces (because with the Paris sets I have, I am rather happy, they are certainly the best served Haydn on disc, even more good recordings than the London set).

[alkan]

Kuijken's London set is far and away my favourite.    It is lean and energetic, but never rushed.   The tempos seem very natural to me and there are no "gimmicks", just pure Haydn played with verve and sensitivity.     The playing and recording are first rate ... transparent and incisive, which gives a lot of impact to the exciting development sections and sensitivity in the slow movements.    There is not a dud amongst them.       My original favourites were Harnoncourt and Szell, but Kuijken now tops the list (except for Szell in Symp 97). 

I also have Kuijken's Paris symphonies:  They are good but I find them a little inferior to his Londons.

For the rest, I prefer mainly Fischer, with Dorati from time to time.   Dorati's version of no. 90 is exceptional .... tremendous music making.

For the Sturm and Drang, Pinnock is excellent, but Solomons (if you can find it) is even better, with 39, 44 and 45 absolutely stunning.

[Mandryka]

I know this explanation -by fans and members of Leusink's troupe- can easily be ridiculed; but I think it would be better understood, if were expressed as: Bach's works never were thought or composed to be a "danty", lavish show.   

Do you mean "dainty"? If you do who does Bach cantatas daintily?

[Wakefield]

Do you mean "dainty"? If you do who does Bach cantatas daintily?

I was really thinking of "danty" (with quotation marks), as defined here: http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=danty; but "dainty" is better when used as synonym of utterly refined.

Examples? Herreweghe and Suzuki.

[North Star]

Examples? Herreweghe and Suzuki.

Herreweghe's Bach is "small; b@tch like" to you?

[Wakefield]

Herreweghe's Bach is "small; b@tch like" to you?

[Mandryka]

I was really thinking of "danty" (with quotation marks), as defined here: http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=danty; but "dainty" is better when used as synonym of utterly refined.

Examples? Herreweghe and Suzuki.

Never heard danty - is it US English? I note that it also means "Something that is considered to be superbly awesome, ridiculously amazing, and outright spectacular. Commonly used when referring to pears."

I think these entries in urban dictionary are taking the piss - fakes.

[North Star]

Never heard danty - is it US English? I note that it also means "Something that is considered to be superbly awesome, ridiculously amazing, and outright spectacular. Commonly used when referring to pears."

I think these entries in urban dictionary are taking the piss - fakes.

From OED:

† dant, n.1
View as: Outline |Full entry
Quotations: Show all |Hide all
Etymology:  Compare obsolete Dutch dante ‘ambubaia, mulier ignava’.
Obs.
Thesaurus »
   
  ‘A profligate woman’ (Halliwell).
a1529   J. Skelton Tunnyng of Elynour Rummyng in Certayne Bks. (?1545) 515   In came another dant She had a wide wesant.

So definitely not a US invention, or fake.

[Mandryka]

a1529   J. Skelton Tunnyng of Elynour Rummyng in Certayne Bks. (?1545) 515   In came another dant She had a wide wesant.

That HAS to be a joke. What the hell's a wesant?

[North Star]

a1529   J. Skelton Tunnyng of Elynour Rummyng in Certayne Bks. (?1545) 515   In came another dant She had a wide wesant.

That HAS to be a joke. What the hell's a wesant?

Same as weasand 

Now chiefly dial.   
1. The œsophagus or gullet.


gullet
a. The passage in the neck of an animal by which food and drink pass from the mouth to the stomach; the œsophagus.

[elotito]

How is Makarras for the London symphonies compared to Bruggen? I see he gets very highly praised on arkiv/classics today but there are more recommendations for Bruggen here.

[Old Listener]

How is Makarras for the London symphonies compared to Bruggen? I see he gets very highly praised on arkiv/classics today but there are more recommendations for Bruggen here.

As far as I know, Mackerras only recorded 31,45, 100, 101, 103 and 104 (on Telarc.)

I listened to their recordings of 100, 101 and 103 today.

Bruggen is sometimes like Harnoncourt, pulling out details in a way that detracts from the flow of the music.

Mackerras doesn't do that.  His 100 and 103 seem to have more weight and momentum than Bruggen's performances.

Neither is my first choice for 100,101, 103 or 104 but I'm happy to have both sets of performances.  Lots of very fine Haydn performances around now.

[alkan]

Neither is my first choice for 100,101, 103 or 104 but I'm happy to have both sets of performances. 

What are your preferences for these symphonies?    Thanks.

[elotito]

Dorati's version of no. 90 is exceptional .... tremendous music making.

I just managed to listen to this one, your description is spot on, wow.

[Old Listener]

What are your preferences for these symphonies?    Thanks.

100 - Klemperer on EMI the second movement reminds me of an English slow march.  I can visuallize the soldiers pushing their feet ahread horizontally before setting them down.

101 - no single favorite.  Ones that I like include Goodman/Hanover Band (with a fine 102 and a wonderful Windsor Castle Overture), McGegan/Philharmonia Baroque, Abbado/COE and Monteux/VPO. I like Mackerras and Bruggen others as well. I've got 22 recordings and almost all are very enjoyable to listen to.  101 is well served.

102 - Klemperer on EMI

103 - Markevich (dry ambience but very clear)

104 - Kuijken about the only recording by Kuijken that I like.

while I'm at it

92 - Szell / Cleveland - My favorite by a long distance. The Smithsonian CD with the Schubert 9th symphony seems to have a bit better sound than the Essential Classics CD.
93 - Szell/Cleveland and Jochum / LPO for the dancing 1st movement
94 - Szell/Cleveland
95 - Reiner/ Chicago, Szell/Cleveland.  I often listen to Klemper/EMI too.
96 - Abbado/COE (along with the best Sinfonia Concertante I've heard)  Szell is about an equal favorite.
97 - Szell / Cleveland
98 - no clear favorite but Szell in the lead.
99 - Szell but I'm not sure that any recording has done full justice to this work.

A note about the Szell CDs.  A recent set with 93-98 had significantly improved sound over the Essential Classics CDs or the Odyssey CDs.  It made a difference for 95 and 98 in particular. I don't know about the source for the recent bargain box.

A couple of decades ago, there weren't so many good Haydn recordings around and many were out of print and unavailable.  We have lots of great recrdings to choose from now and most recordings are available in some way.

[alkan]

100 - Klemperer on EMI the second movement reminds me of an English slow march.  I can visuallize the soldiers pushing their feet ahread horizontally before setting them down.

101 - no single favorite.  Ones that I like include Goodman/Hanover Band (with a fine 102 and a wonderful Windsor Castle Overture), McGegan/Philharmonia Baroque, Abbado/COE and Monteux/VPO. I like Mackerras and Bruggen others as well. I've got 22 recordings and almost all are very enjoyable to listen to.  101 is well served.

102 - Klemperer on EMI

103 - Markevich (dry ambience but very clear)

104 - Kuijken about the only recording by Kuijken that I like.

while I'm at it

92 - Szell / Cleveland - My favorite by a long distance. The Smithsonian CD with the Schubert 9th symphony seems to have a bit better sound than the Essential Classics CD.
93 - Szell/Cleveland and Jochum / LPO for the dancing 1st movement
94 - Szell/Cleveland
95 - Reiner/ Chicago, Szell/Cleveland.  I often listen to Klemper/EMI too.
96 - Abbado/COE (along with the best Sinfonia Concertante I've heard)  Szell is about an equal favorite.
97 - Szell / Cleveland
98 - no clear favorite but Szell in the lead.
99 - Szell but I'm not sure that any recording has done full justice to this work.

A note about the Szell CDs.  A recent set with 93-98 had significantly improved sound over the Essential Classics CDs or the Odyssey CDs.  It made a difference for 95 and 98 in particular. I don't know about the source for the recent bargain box.

A couple of decades ago, there weren't so many good Haydn recordings around and many were out of print and unavailable.  We have lots of great recrdings to choose from now and most recordings are available in some way.

Hmmm .... I understand your choice of pseudonym !      A big majority of the older generation of conductors.         

Szell is one of my favourites for the early London symphonies.   I have an old set of CD's but I think I may need to invest in the remastered set.     Klemperer is a surprise, since I would never have thought he possessed the vitality, energy and sense ofhumor for Haydn.  I guess I need to check out some of his recordings.    The same goes for Markevich for no. 103, which is one of my absolute favourite symphonies.   I have never found a completely satisfactory recording of the last movement .... I am looking for one with a lot of nervous tension and an implacable tempo, especially in the switches between the forte passages and the following repeated note piano sections.

I guess that our tastes will not match, since I am a big fan of Kuijken for the Londons.     And although I like the Szell 92, I find Kuijken excellent here as well.

I too have several recordings of 101, but I am still looking for one with an overwhelming finale.    Haydn really builds up the tension in the approach to the culmination of the development, and when it arrives I really feel that the brass should be blare out and make a real impact.   Out of your 22 versions, is there one that is like this ?

Finally, if you like Reiner in no 95, I guess that you must love his 88 on the same CD!    This is one of the great Haydn discs IMHO.

 

[alkan]

I just managed to listen to this one, your description is spot on, wow.

Yes, it really hit me sideways when I first heard it.    I think No 90 is the pinnacle of Dorati's series.   It has a wonderful mix of grandeur and energy in the outer movements and the orchestra is terrific.     Everything is just right.     

Dorati's No 91 is not bad either ..... 

[amw]

Whatever the merits are of Kuijken's London Symphonies, I find them too painfully out of tune to listen to (except for the two "A major" ones, Nos. 98 and 102). I don't know what tuning system he's using, but it's not one that works for my ears.

[Old Listener]

Hmmm .... I understand your choice of pseudonym !      A big majority of the older generation of conductors.         

Szell is one of my favourites for the early London symphonies.   I have an old set of CD's but I think I may need to invest in the remastered set.     Klemperer is a surprise, since I would never have thought he possessed the vitality, energy and sense ofhumor for Haydn.  I guess I need to check out some of his recordings.    The same goes for Markevich for no. 103, which is one of my absolute favourite symphonies.   I have never found a completely satisfactory recording of the last movement .... I am looking for one with a lot of nervous tension and an implacable tempo, especially in the switches between the forte passages and the following repeated note piano sections.

I guess that our tastes will not match, since I am a big fan of Kuijken for the Londons.     And although I like the Szell 92, I find Kuijken excellent here as well.

I too have several recordings of 101, but I am still looking for one with an overwhelming finale.    Haydn really builds up the tension in the approach to the culmination of the development, and when it arrives I really feel that the brass should be blare out and make a real impact.   Out of your 22 versions, is there one that is like this ?

Finally, if you like Reiner in no 95, I guess that you must love his 88 on the same CD!    This is one of the great Haydn discs IMHO.

Well, I've been behind in thoroughly sampling the recordings of conductors whose work I admire.  I've been caught up on Szell, Reiner, Klemperer, Walter and Monteux recordings for a while.  More recently, I've explored Sandor Vegh's Mozart, Haydn and Schubert recordings as conductor.  I'm almost done collecting Wand's recordings that interest me.  I've sampled the Abbado COE recordings and the Orchestra Mozart recordings.  I have another Hogwood Haydn box to get.  I'm getting closer to being caught up.

I do appreciate and listen to musicians who are still alive and working.  For example, the Bilson/Gardiner Mozart concerti recordings are favorites for me.

--
Haydn 103 - I listened to Bruggen and Mackerras yesterday and Markevich today.  All seemed to have "a lot of nervous tension and an implacable tempo" in the last movement.

---
Haydn 101 - I've listened to 5 performances in 2 days but I wasn't listening for the particular thing.  What struck me about the Goodman performance was how it danced from the start of the second movement to the end of the symphony.

As I listened to the Briuggen and Mackerras yesterday, I was struck by how they build to a big, dramatic climax.
---
Haydn 88 - Another work with many very good recordings.  The Reiner is one such but not head and shoulders over others for me.  Obscure ones I like: Jane Glover / London Mozart Players has a wonderful sense of Haydn style (80, 83, 84, 87 and 89 are equally good.)   Hans Peter Frank / Helsingsborg SO (89 and 90 are very good too.)

The only recording of 88 that I can find no merit in is by Furtwangler coupled with a Schubert 9th symphony.  Many people used to rave about how profound it was.  I'd give both works a try every so often and never heard anything worthwhile on those recordings.