Haydn symphonies

[JaapT]

I have the Haydn anthology by Frans Brüggen, which I enjoy usually very much. But I think that the Sturm ind Drang symphonies with the Orch, of the Age of Enlighthenment are not as good as the Paris and London ones done with his Orchestra of the 18th Century.

I also have two discs with Trevor Pinnock with Sturm ind Drang, which I like very much. But when it comes to some of them I actually like very much a CD I haven't seen listed yet in this thread: Symphonies 44, 45, and 49 by Ton Koopman and the Amsterdam Baroque Orchestra. I find them (even) more energetic than Trevor Pinnock's account.

Any other thoughts on Koopman's Haydn, and especially about other CDs from this series?

[Cosi bel do]

I have the Haydn anthology by Frans Brüggen, which I enjoy usually very much. But I think that the Sturm ind Drang symphonies with the Orch, of the Age of Enlighthenment are not as good as the Paris and London ones done with his Orchestra of the 18th Century.

I also have two discs with Trevor Pinnock with Sturm ind Drang, which I like very much. But when it comes to some of them I actually like very much a CD I haven't seen listed yet in this thread: Symphonies 44, 45, and 49 by Ton Koopman and the Amsterdam Baroque Orchestra. I find them (even) more energetic than Trevor Pinnock's account.

Any other thoughts on Koopman's Haydn, and especially about other CDs from this series?

It is not a series, Koopman recorded symphonies 44, 45 & 49 and also 83-85 for Erato, at the very beginning of the Amsterdam Baroque Orchestra, but that's all.
I haven't heard 83-85 yet. About the three earlier symphonies, I think these are good early HIP accounts, but by comparison with more recent attempts, I feel it lacks a little in spontaneity and vigour... Also, the sound is not very precise, with wide and vague acoustics. I found symphony 44 a little better than the 2 others, though.

As an anecdote, I have heard Koopman conduct Haydn many years ago (symphonies I don't remember, and also a choral piece, I don't which). It was with a modern orchestra (the Orchestre philharmonique de Radio France) and it was a really dull performance, but it just felt like there was no alchemy at all between him and the musicians. A failed partnership...

[Cosi bel do]

I finished listening to the London Symphonies and completed my above list. I also listened to a few of these by Kuijken (but I stil have to purchase the complete set) and he is really each time among the best versions, easily.

I still have the Sinfonia Concertante and the two Symphonies A and B to listen too, plus a few of the Solomons recordings, the 4 last symphonies by Markevitch, and most of Fey's recordings... So, still a few things to hear and a few editions to make to my list.

[Cosi bel do]

Well, I listened to my 5 versions of the Sinfonia Concertante Hob. I:105 tonight. And what a beautiful piece of music this is ! I knew it but didn't remember how beautiful it is. It is certainly one of my favourite works by Haydn, and not less beautiful than Mozart's violin-viola Sinfonia concertante.

Hermann Scherchen's version is really incredible (in the Westminster orchestral big Korean box). Vivid stereo sound, and magnificent soloists, really, all that in the most comfortable and brilliant viennese sound (but with clarity too, thanks to Scherchen's efforts). A really wonderful CD.

Among other versions, there's one by Toscanini in 1948 and it is not bad at all, warm and full of spirit, with excellent soloists.

Wallfisch, Dorati and even Harnoncourt are less satisfying...

[Peter Power Pop]

Well, I listened to my 5 versions of the Sinfonia Concertante Hob. I:105 tonight. And what a beautiful piece of music this is ! I knew it but didn't remember how beautiful it is. It is certainly one of my favourite works by Haydn, and not less beautiful than Mozart's violin-viola Sinfonia concertante.

Hermann Scherchen's version is really incredible (in the Westminster orchestral big Korean box). Vivid stereo sound, and magnificent soloists, really, all that in the most comfortable and brilliant viennese sound (but with clarity too, thanks to Scherchen's efforts). A really wonderful CD.

Among other versions, there's one by Toscanini in 1948 and it is not bad at all, warm and full of spirit, with excellent soloists.

Wallfisch, Dorati and even Harnoncourt are less satisfying...

Here's the Sinfonia Concertante if anyone wants to hear it:



Haydn - Sinfonia Concertante in B flat major, Hob. I:105

Austro-Hungarian Haydn Orchestra / Adam Fischer
https://www.youtube.com/v/snNYJjNo1F8



Chamber Orchestra of the 50th Collegium Musicum / Hiroshi Kodama
https://www.youtube.com/v/5ZTuWScLZfU



NBC Orchestra / Arturo Toscanini
https://www.youtube.com/v/keKurc8tK7I



Orchestra of the 18th Century / Frans Brüggen
https://www.youtube.com/v/4tj0zz6KmSI



The Philadelphia Orchestra / Eugene Ormandy
https://www.youtube.com/v/PsY5DVFF2hk



Slovak Chamber Orchestra / Bohdan Warchal
https://www.youtube.com/v/3OcMChZOnyA



[? / ?] – but it's a nice version, whoever it is
[Update: I have it on very good authority – thanks, Discobolus! – that it's Philharmonica Hungarica / Antal Doráti]
https://www.youtube.com/v/DLV2hhcTEdI

[Cosi bel do]

Thanks, great findings, I didn't have a few of these

And I had forgotten the Brüggen version
I had actually forgotten about this whole CD, with symphony 88 and 89. Great, more Haydn to listen to !!!

[Peter Power Pop]

Thanks, great findings, I didn't have a few of these

Mighty good.

And I had forgotten the Brüggen version
I had actually forgotten about this whole CD, with symphony 88 and 89. Great, more Haydn to listen to !!!

I would love to find out who it is playing the last version. It's probably my favourite of all the ones I've heard so far. I've just checked all available versions on Spotify, but unfortunately none of them matched. I think I'll have to a dig a little deeper. I'm now in dog-with-a-bone mode. I'm determined to find out who that is!

[Cosi bel do]

According to the timing and a quick comparison, this is the Dorati version. Good, not great. I slightly prefer Brüggen. I find the dialogue between soloists in Toscanini really better. And Scherchen is really miles above...

[Peter Power Pop]

According to the timing and a quick comparison, this is the Dorati version. Good, not great. I slightly prefer Brüggen. I find the dialogue between soloists in Toscanini really better. And Scherchen is really miles above...

I like how urbane the Dorati performance is. Thanks for doing the detective work, Discobolus. (This page confirms it.)

I'm itching to hear the Scherchen version now.

[Peter Power Pop]

According to the timing and a quick comparison, this is the Dorati version. Good, not great. I slightly prefer Brüggen. I find the dialogue between soloists in Toscanini really better. And Scherchen is really miles above...

I've found a preview of the Scherchen version here. Wow. It's full of beans. (I think I could safely use the word "zippy" to describe it.)

Thanks, Discobolus, for pointing me in the direction of Scherchen's version. Splendid.

[Jo498]

It's a pity that the Scherchen was not included in the DG-Haydn-Box from 10 years ago or so. I am not sure if I want to spend money for a 2nd party transfer download of an almost 50 year old recording.
I love the beautiful 2nd movement, but overall I am not as fond of the piece as of many other Haydn symphonies. It is still very good, but comparably lightweight. Probably should listen to Brüggen's; I have had the box for some time but not listened to all of it (as I had the London set before I got the big box).

As for some other pieces: Does anyone have heard the Salonen/Stockholm disc from the 80s with 22, 82, and 78? I am especially interested in 78. Or should I get Orpheus for 78?
Another one that seems interesting is Rattle with 22, 86 and 102, any comments on this one? I rather like Rattle's disc with 60, 70, 90 and also the Berlin recordings of 88-92 + Concertante. But of course I do not really need another 86 or 102...

[Marc]

[....]
As for some other pieces: Does anyone have heard the Salonen/Stockholm disc from the 80s with 22, 82, and 78? I am especially interested in 78. Or should I get Orpheus for 78?
[....]

I can't compare Salonen to the Orpheus disc, because I dunno the latter. I only have the Adam Fischer/Austro-Hungarian Haydn Orchestra recording (Nimbus, re-released on Brilliant Classics) to compare.

The Salonen/Stockholm disc is beautifully recorded and no. 78 is played as Haydn described it: beautiful, elegant and not too long. Adam Fischer's performance is more grim and stiff, especially in the outer movements, with slower tempi to add to that grimness. Summarized: Salonen is more Pinnock and Fischer is more Harnoncourt.
I'm happy with both of them.

[Old Listener]

Thanks, great findings, I didn't have a few of these

And I had forgotten the Brüggen version
I had actually forgotten about this whole CD, with symphony 88 and 89. Great, more Haydn to listen to !!!

And perhaps more. A few more sinfonia concertante recordings not yet mentioned:

Abbado /  COE - still my favorite.  Soloists and orchestra fit together better than in other recordings I've heard. The outer movements feel right and the second movement conveys the beauty in the music.

Spivakov / Moscow Virtuosi (on a CD with Kissin playing the dickins out of the Haydn piano Concerto in D major). - more emphasis on the soloists than the orchestra.

Pople / London Festival Orchestra - very good humored but not high powered.

Sandor Vegh  / Camerata Academica Salzburg - slower with warm sound.  Enjoyable but not a top choice for me.

Simon / BPO - in a box set with 88-92.  I like all the performances in the set.  90 especially.

Barenboim / ECO - I've had this on LP for 40+ years.  I've always admired how the Haydn performance sang.

Maezendorfer / Vienna CO - I'm listing this for completeness.  I wouldn't recommend it.

Hogwood / Kammer Orchestra Basel - found on Youtube.  An album cover suggests that a CD or LP recording exists.

I just downloaded a recording by Abbado / Orchestra Mozart on the Claves label (from Amoeba.com.)  I have not listened to more than samples yet.

[Peter Power Pop]

Discobolus recently asked me what I thought of Hermann Scherchen's conducting of Haydn's symphonies. Because I've never heard any of Scherchen's recordings (nope, none at all), I set about rectifying this dreadful oversight by finding a disc with Haydn and Scherchen on it.

I found a disc featuring Haydn's Military and Farewell Symphonies coupled with the Sinfonia Concertante, performed by the Vienna State Opera Orchestra with Hermann at the helm.

I had a listen, and this was my response:



*******************************************



I must state from the outset that I have very little in the way of Haydn symphony recordings. I have the London and Paris Symphonies (both sets by Brüggen) and a few discs of miscellaneous symphonies. As for those symphonies on the Scherchen CD, I have one Sinfonia Concertante (The Chamber Orchestra of Europe / Sir Roger Norrington), one Military Symphony (Royal Philharmonic Orchestra / Kurt Sanderling), and don't have the Farewell Symphony. Given that my current listening interests have been of composers who aren't Haydn, I haven't heard those discs in ages. So this will feel new to me.

These are my first impressions:



Symphony No. 100 "Military"

http://www.youtube.com/v/ReQe5dB-JF8

1st movement: The elegance in the playing is wonderful. The recording's not much chop (there's a glare in the violins when they start playing loudly), but oh my, the phrasing from the orchestra. Glorious. This is nice, old school Haydn, and I'm enjoying it enormously – glassy violins and all.

I was surprised at the occasional mistakes (at 0:50 a violin in the left channel plays a wrong note, at 3:11/3:12 a violin in the left channel plays a sharp note, at 5:08 violins in the right channel are sharp), but overall the orchestra plays as one. As far as I know, I've never heard Scherchen's conducting before (he didn't record much of my favourite composers). What I like about his conducting here is how he achives unanimity of ensemble, and how he has a definite vision of what the music is supposed to sound like. (In this case it's supposed to sound like what I guess was the mid-1950s view of Haydn: traditional central European.)

2nd movement: That phrasing. Beautiful. From 2:18-2:26 the percussion section sounds like they're having a whale of a time, banging away on their instruments. Fun. And I like the half-hearted cymbal clash at 3:23 (it's played a lot quieter than the previous clashes – I wonder if it's marked that way in the score).

The orchestra sounds a little unsteady at 4:33 (that may just be because the horn in the right channel is a little flat).

4:50-5:04: Cute bassoon in the left channel. (Did the bassoonist miss a note at 5:03, or is that in the score?)

Actually, that entire section featuring the interplay with the winds (4:50-5:25) is lovely.

I'll try to be a bit briefer with my responses from here on in.

6:12: Mendelssohn! (http://youtu.be/z0wmzoHd6yo)

Overall impression of the second movement: I'd rate it VNI (Very Nice Indeed).

3rd movement: The way this starts is a good working definition of the word "rollicking".

The more I'm listening Scherchen's conducting, the less like other conductors from the '50s it sounds. Scherchen's Haydn is light on its feet.

4th movement: There sure is some frisky playing in this movement. I have no idea how it's played in other versions, but this one sounds as if the orchestra's playing as fast as it can. It's tremendously exciting.

1:28: Flat note from a cello in the left channel.

1:44/1:45: I think the timpani in the right channel is as close to perfect for this moment as is possible (for this performance).

3:12: Well, I certainly wasn't expecting the triangle and bass drum here. Haydn knows how to make something exciting even more exciting.

Splendid.



Symphony No. 45 "Farewell"

http://www.youtube.com/v/WWwTJWD-51M

1st movement: This is music played with furrowed brow. It reminds me of Beethoven in his "relentless" mode.

That was quick. It's already time for the second movement.

2nd movement: This is very pleasant and refined. Haydn has his wig on for this movement.

3rd movement: Another pleasant and refined movement.

4th movement: More pleasantness and refinement. This is very nice indeed.

I thought it was lovely that each player said cheerio as he left ("Auf wiedersehen" at 4:08, 4:10, then plenty more times until the end of the movement). The sound of a chair moving (at 4:12 in the left channel), footsteps (4:18-4:22 and elsewhere), and even the sound of an instrument case closing (5:25) were nice touches. I dare say Hermann Scherchen was the last one to say "Auf wiedersehen", at 8:11.

For me, the little lapses in playing (e.g., a slightly flat violin in the left channel from 4:39-4:41, dodgy intonation from the violins in the left channel from 4:45-4:51, the horn coming in late at 4:52) just added to the charm of this movement.

Unfortunately, at 7:33 the right channel drops out. (According to the All Music Guide, "...owing to a defect in the master tape, the last 45 seconds of it is rendered in mono...")

Overall, though, this last movement is what I think classical music record reviewers tend to call "treasureable". I loved it.



Sinfonia Concertante

1st movement: I was a little disappointed that something came after the Farewell Symphony. (With all those "Auf wiedersehen"s, I would have much preferred the Farewell to end the disc.)

The end of the Farewell had put me in a reverie, but as soon as the Sinfonia Concertante started I was yanked out of it by an orchestra loudly banging away at their instruments. (I know it wasn't all that loud, but it sure felt like it.)

Trivia: At 0:05 there's a little thump in the left channel. And at 0:18/0:19 there's a little glitch. (I think that's on the master tape, not the CD.)

0:43-0:52: That's a vey busy, and weird-sounding, viola churning away in the background there. Or maybe it's a cello, playing very high. Actually, the more this movement goes on, the more I'm inclined to think it's a cello. The sound of the cello in the treble region (e.g., 2:19-2:21) has that odd sound I heard earlier. I guess it's a cello.

Hmm. I'll try not to get hung up on the sound of instruments here. (Note to self: Just enjoy the music, Peter.)

There's some nice interplay between the solo instruments in this opening movement.

However, I feel compelled to say that I'm not totally enjoying Scherchen's ultra-brisk interpretation of this first movement. I'd prefer the orchestra to slow down a little so I can savour the various concertante parts.

2nd movement: That's better. Not a lot better, but better.

The cello's slightly insecure intonation from 1:18-1:47 is bothering me a bit.

I like the bassoon sneaking in a bit of concertante-ness from 2:04-2:07.

When the orchestra opens out with that lovely cantabile playing (3:04-3:14) it feels like a big musical hug from Haydn.

3rd movement: I like the tempo and forthright playing of this last movement. I think the way Scherchen approaches this movement is just right.

5:15/5:16: Wow, that's a woozy horn note in the right channel. (This is what I think happened: The horn guy plays a flat note, quickly realises his mistake, and moves the note up to the proper one, hoping no-one will notice.)



*******************************************



And that's what I thought on first hearing.

More Scherchen please.

[Jo498]

The Salonen/Stockholm disc is beautifully recorded and no. 78 is played as Haydn described it: beautiful, elegant and not too long. Adam Fischer's performance is more grim and stiff, especially in the outer movements, with slower tempi to add to that grimness.

I can agree with your description, but after listening to the Salonen CD one and a half times or so I am not that happy with it. I find it often too fast and rather lightweight overall. In the #78 I clearly prefer Fischer, I think. I had forgotten how good this one was. I might go for a more thorough comparison (my 3rd one is Goodman's).

[Cosi bel do]

As I have not exactly finished my Haydn symphonies listening project yet, I listened to Solomons recordings, 36 symphonies mostly available through average rips on Youtube, but I tried to ignore issues that evidently are a consequence of this aspect.
I understand why, around 1980-82, these recordings were well received. L'Estro Armonico is not a period instruments ensemble, but a chamber orchestra with a lighter sound than people were used to then, an insistence on the detail, without much legato. Still, today, it sounds tefchnically a little weak, a few sections (horns are usually very fragile, and lower string sections sound spineless, as they do on most Hogwood recordings by the way) really make the whole thing sound a little amateurish at times. Some symphonies are better than others though.
On the pure matter of interpretation, the impression is quite fresh, elegant, pleasant. But there are more recent, tense, detailed, technically satisfying recordings, and I don't really see how Solomons' could be considered competitive anymore when compared to Pinnock or Harnoncourt. Nice, good readings, and a useful addition to the discography for a few symphonies where the choice is scarce (between Dorati/Fischer/DRD and Hogwood). But not much more.

Now Fey will be my last stop on this trip

[jfdrex]

Has no one mentioned the supremely elegant recordings of the last six London symphonies by Mogens Wöldike and the Vienna State Opera Orchestra?

[asin]B0000023B2[/asin]

Originally issued on Vanguard LPs, and later--all-too-briefly--available on cd.  Long out of print, alas, and offered at exorbitant prices whenever someone does decide to part with a used copy. 

The first two movements of the Military:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=POGlfT90wRE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Hq9oFL1lpI

And the glorious adagio of No. 102:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UMTp0hLkcz4

[Gurn Blanston]

L'Estro Armonico is not a period instruments ensemble, but a chamber orchestra with a lighter sound than people were used to then, an insistence on the detail, without much legato.

Not sure where you heard that... ??

[Cosi bel do]

Well, that was my impression. Then it's a very timid way to play these instruments... And the horns really don't sound natural (well, they mostly sound bad anyway...).

Comparing older "period instruments" recordings and recent HIP ones (with or without period instruments) is sometimes a funny experience, and it proves the important element is not so much the instruments, but the choices in terms of phrasing, articulation, etc.

Thanks anyway

[Gurn Blanston]

Well, that was my impression. Then it's a very timid way to play these instruments... And the horns really don't sound natural (well, they mostly sound bad anyway...).

Comparing older "period instruments" recordings and recent HIP ones (with or without period instruments) is sometimes a funny experience, and it proves the important element is not so much the instruments, but the choices in terms of phrasing, articulation, etc.

Thanks anyway

Yes, I don't disagree with that. The results obtained by the true pioneers are certainly not the same of modern PI performances. And not only in the playing, but in the recording techniques too.

My opinion doesn't matter, of course, one way or another, but for me, the musicianship carries these performances far past any shortcomings in sound or recording. I have all of them, I bought the 9 disks which had never been released by CBS, remastered to CD by Haydn House. In some cases, they are the only alternative to Hogwood, and in at least one case (Symphony 63, 'La Roxelane') they provide the alternative version performance which enables you to hear both authentic orchestrations (on PI, that is, which is all I care about).

I know you make allowances for older recordings which are not PI, which have similar issues, usually of sound. Since I don't do that, I don't make a special pleading for these to have the same forbearance. I will just quietly enjoy them, over here in the corner....