The Official GMG US Election Results Thread 2014

[Florestan]

Democracy should not be defined only as the vote.

Well, a conceptual distinction between democracy as in "universal suffrage" and democracy as in "rule of law and constitutionally-guaranteed freedoms and rights" can of course be made. In reality, though, they can´t be separated. I know of no country without suffrage where the rule of law reigns and freedoms and rights are respected, while the reverse is all too common: plenty of countries with suffrage where the rule of law is conspicuously absent and the situation of rights and freedoms is disastrous.

There is one more aspect that must be noticed: in general, the smaller the country (or the population), the better functioning of democracy. If I´m not mistaken, you are French; would you agree that Denmark is a more functional democracy than France? I mean, they have much less corruption, if at all, and are much less divided politically and economically than the French. (Of course, I mean no disrespect to France or the French people, I have lived there for almost two years and it was a very pleasant time of my life.)

[Cosi bel do]

Well, at least in this case we should only speak of representative democracy. I still believe other systems could work but I'm not sure I'll try making a revolution for it

Of course one could say France is a dysfunctional democracy in several ways. I don't really know Denmark though (except their extraordinary socioeconomic indicators). Anyway, I think size is a problem as soon as you can't gather everyone on the agora once in a while. You just have to deal with it. There are things that ought to be changed in France but it still is one of the better functioning democracies around.

As for political divide I'm not sure it should be considered as an issue. Democracy is fundamentally defined not by consensus but by disagreement, dissensus. Without divide there are no politics in the true aristotelian sense of the word.

[Florestan]

I think size is a problem as soon as you can't gather everyone on the agora once in a while.

Exactly.

As for political divide I'm not sure it should be considered as an issue. Democracy is fundamentally defined not by consensus but by disagreement, dissensus. Without divide there are no politics in the true aristotelian sense of the word.

Sure, but there is a threshold beyond which disagreement and division turns into resentment and political civil war, everyone demonizing everybody else not of his own party or persuasion, and this is not good.

[Cosi bel do]

Yes, and this is the original difference between democracy and stasis. This description fits more with American politics than with France though.

[Florestan]

Yes, and this is the original difference between democracy and stasis. This description fits more with American politics than with France though.

Maybe, but in France there is also a massive denigration of Marine Le Pen and her electorate, or so I had the impression during, and just after, the last elections. I don´t like her ideas and I´d never vote for her were I a French, but if she gains such popularity something must certainly be wrong in the French political establishment and its policies.

[Karl Henning]

Ari has a point:

Republicans, who have won the popular vote in just one presidential election since 1992, need to do things differently if they want to win the White House again. It's one thing to win a rejection election against the party in charge; it's another to prove to the voters that you have ideas and are ready to govern.

[Cosi bel do]

Maybe, but in France there is also a massive denigration of Marine Le Pen and her electorate, or so I had the impression during, and just after, the last elections. I don´t like her ideas and I´d never vote for her were I a French, but if she gains such popularity something must certainly be wrong in the French political establishment and its policies.

This is surely a matter we could discuss but I'm afraid we're going too far off topic 

[Ken B]

Maybe, but in France there is also a massive denigration of Marine Le Pen and her electorate, or so I had the impression during, and just after, the last elections. I don´t like her ideas and I´d never vote for her were I a French, but if she gains such popularity something must certainly be wrong in the French political establishment and its policies.

Indeed. There are some serious problems in Europe that the major parties resolutely refuse to face. That opens the door to extremist fringe parties. As we have been seeing in several countries.

[Florestan]

This is surely a matter we could discuss but I'm afraid we're going too far off topic 

Indeed. Let´s not derail the thread more than we already did. 

[Cosi bel do]

Indeed. There are some serious problems in Europe that the major parties resolutely refuse to face. That opens the door to extremist fringe parties. As we have been seeing in several countries.

I'd be interested to discuss what these "serious problems that the major parties refuse to face" are.

Indeed. Let´s not derail the thread more than we already did. 

Well... Let's start another one ? About what ? European politics ? Does it not already exist somewhere ?

[Ken B]

I'd be interested to discuss what these "serious problems that the major parties refuse to face" are.

I'm vague to avoid hijacking the thread. But I think if you just look at the issues some of the extreme parties, such as LePen's, or the BNP, have made hay with you'll see what I mean. Immigration and assimilation issues are clearly amongst them. Many people I think have concerns and the LePen type parties are paying attention.

[Karl Henning]

If you're a musician in France, you're in heaven:  Who needs politics, when you've got IRCAM? 

[snyprrr]

This is surely a matter we could discuss but I'm afraid we're going too far off topic 

I approve of off-topic here (though, as everyone knows, I always remain on a laser focus!)!! Go for it, I'm enjoying your exchange!!

[Todd]

Republicans swept state level legislatures, too.  On the drive to work, NPR stated that Republican control of state legislatures is at the highest level in a century, and the linked Vox article points out that Democrats now have outright control of only seven states, which is the lowest number since the Civil War, or the War of Northern Aggression, whichever you prefer.  (I'm not sure doing direct state counts a century-and-a-half apart is particularly meaningful, but it is a fun fact.)

[Ken B]

Republicans swept state level legislatures, too.  On the drive to work, NPR stated that Republican control of state legislatures is at the highest level in a century, and the linked Vox article points out that Democrats now have outright control of only seven states, which is the lowest number since the Civil War, or the War of Northern Aggression, whichever you prefer.  (I'm not sure doing direct state counts a century-and-a-half apart is particularly meaningful, but it is a fun fact.)

War of Southern Aggression, thanks.

[Karl Henning]

(though, as everyone knows, I always remain on a laser focus!)

Fair disclosure, good.

[jochanaan]

The man who coined the term booboisie.

[jochanaan]

There is no more stupid, idiotic and dangerous way of selecting the leaders of a nation than one man, one vote..

It would actually work very well if every "one man" were aware and informed about the issues and candidates for office...or if "common sense" were in fact still common...

[springrite]

It would actually work very well if every "one man" were aware and informed about the issues and candidates for office...or if "common sense" were in fact still common...

Or, to put it more bluntly: It would actually work very well if every "one man" is like ME. 

[jochanaan]

Or, to put it more bluntly: It would actually work very well if every "one man" is like ME. 

No, like ME!!