Favourite symphony no. 9

[Jo498]

I love the choral finale of the Beethoven (it is a strangely underrated piece in some quarters, apparently people love to hate it) and I think the unusual movements in unusual order of Mahler's 9th are a stroke of genius. He probably got this from Tchaikovsky's Pathetique (although the Mahler 3rd already has a slow finale). This is far more successful than trying to rehash the idea of a triumphant finale (like in the 2nd or 7th) which can only fail when compared to e.g. Beethoven.

[mszczuj]

This is far more successful than trying to rehash the idea of a triumphant finale

But it is triumphant.

[ibanezmonster]

I love the choral finale of the Beethoven (it is a strangely underrated piece in some quarters, apparently people love to hate it) and I think the unusual movements in unusual order of Mahler's 9th are a stroke of genius. He probably got this from Tchaikovsky's Pathetique (although the Mahler 3rd already has a slow finale). This is far more successful than trying to rehash the idea of a triumphant finale (like in the 2nd or 7th) which can only fail when compared to e.g. Beethoven.

It's unusual, but it makes so much sense. Start slow, end slow. The beginning and end is for reflection. Keep the wild and crazy stuff in the middle. It's the only way I'd write a symphony intended to be epic.

[EigenUser]

It's unusual, but it makes so much sense. Start slow, end slow. The beginning and end is for reflection. Keep the wild and crazy stuff in the middle. It's the only way I'd write a symphony intended to be epic.

True. I love all four movements, but my favorites are the last two.

[Jo498]

But it is triumphant.

maybe, but not "conventionally triumphant". Commentators speak of "dissolving", "Nirwana", not of everlasting glory.

[Jo498]

True. I love all four movements, but my favorites are the last two.

I think all 4 movements of Mahler's 9 are supreme examples of "types" he had written earlier examples of, but not always on such a scale. This seems obvious for 2 and 3, the grotesque Laendler (+ waltz) and the angry scherzo with polyphonic sections (and a starkly contrasting "trio", here not a wistful reminiscence, but a prefiguration of the finale). A slow ecstatic finale we have in the 3rd (and with a twist in the 4th). Not so sure about the 1st movement, although the march-like sections are of course well-known from other pieces, the closest predecessor might be the 1st mvtmt. of the 7th (or the finale of "Das Lied von der Erde").

I happen to think that Beethoven's 9th is a very similar case. Even the choral finale has predecessors (the Eroica finale and the choral fantasy as well as the choral fugues of the missa solemnis).

Both composers achieve extraordinary and highly original works on a huge scale, but both are firmly rooted in earlier movements of their respective ouevres.

[ibanezmonster]

I think all 4 movements of Mahler's 9 are supreme examples of "types" he had written earlier examples of, but not always on such a scale. This seems obvious for 2 and 3, the grotesque Laendler (+ waltz) and the angry scherzo with polyphonic sections (and a starkly contrasting "trio", here not a wistful reminiscence, but a prefiguration of the finale). A slow ecstatic finale we have in the 3rd (and with a twist in the 4th). Not so sure about the 1st movement, although the march-like sections are of course well-known from other pieces, the closest predecessor might be the 1st mvtmt. of the 7th (or the finale of "Das Lied von der Erde").

Ha, that's actually a not fully developed thought I've had before. If I had to choose each movement's "predecessors":

1: difficult to say since it's so unique, but I'd say the opening movement from the 7th
2: too many to list (possibly several movements from the 7th), or maybe even the 2nd movement from the 2nd symphony
3: definitely the 2nd movement from the 5th
4: definitely the final movement from the 3rd

[EigenUser]

Ha, that's actually a not fully developed thought I've had before. If I had to choose each movement's "predecessors":

1: difficult to say since it's so unique, but I'd say the opening movement from the 7th
2: too many to list (possibly several movements from the 7th), or maybe even the 2nd movement from the 2nd symphony
3: definitely the 2nd movement from the 5th
4: definitely the final movement from the 3rd

4 could also be the final (6th) movement from Das Lied von der Erde.

No other votes for DSCH9?

[Sergeant Rock]

4 could also be the final (6th) movement from Das Lied von der Erde.

No other votes for DSCH9?

I haven't voted (I find it impossible to choose between those Ninths plus several not listed, e.g., Vaughan Williams) but whenever I have had the urge to vote (just so I could see the results) Shostakovich was the most likely candidate if for no other reason than it's the Ninth I listen to most often. It might happen one day 

Sarge

[Karl Henning]

Sweet!

[Cosi bel do]

Funny to see Dvorak with 0 vote

[mc ukrneal]

4 could also be the final (6th) movement from Das Lied von der Erde.

No other votes for DSCH9?

All those Mahler votes were really Shosty votes - people were just one row off! Maybe a mod could correct their error!

[not edward]

4 could also be the final (6th) movement from Das Lied von der Erde.

I'd say that's a much closer parallel.

[mszczuj]

Well, then you've completely missed the point of the work I think. After completing Symphony No. 8, Shostakovich must have been worried about what the next symphony should sound like and, more importantly, would he live long enough to complete it? His Symphony No. 9 is one of the greatest 'anti-Beethoven' symphonies ever created. If you notice, and know your history, of ninth symphonies, then you understand that there's some tragic element that, historically speaking, usually follows during the creation of such a symphony. What Shostakovich did, and quite brilliantly, I might add, is make this a lighter work and totally ignored what the Soviet artistic establishment were expecting and wanting to hear from him. Needless to say, this symphony was unpopular with Stalin and didn't really do well at its' premiere, but I think the message of the symphony is quite clear. A shame that you didn't catch any of this from this symphony.

Well, I would call his No.4 nice music as well. I have probably my taste and my sensitivity calibrated in other way than yours.  Yes, there is a lot of anxiety in Shostakovich No.9, but as a man who grown in communist country I cant find any special merit in playing with censure. This was the way we lived once and I can understand this but I wouldn't rate the work basing on it.

I don't think there is anything which could be called 'anti-Beethoven' in writing music based on simply (or just no so dramatic) tunes. Beethoven No. 1 is much lighter in construction than famous symphonies of previous years and it is done so - without any doubt - by reason, as he usually tried in this years to make his music heavier than that of his predecessors. His No.8 is based on cheerful tunes but nevertheless it is full of dramatic tensions, especially in developments, probably no less  dramatic than in any other of his works. So it could be only objection about some bombastic cult of his music, which lead to overrating the value of numbers attributed to works, but I don't think it is a problem which is worth to make any action.

It is just still less in Shostakovich work for me than all that I owe to its rivals in this poll, or other Nos.9 which I like more than it (as this of VW). I feel no shame because of it, alas.

[Jo498]

Last movement of Das Lied von der Erde is almost the outer movements of the 9th rolled into one. There is both the funeral-like-march-like stuff of impending death, longing for life and finally withdrawal and dissolution/redemption.

[Mirror Image]

Well, I would call his No.4 nice music as well. I have probably my taste and my sensitivity calibrated in other way than yours.  Yes, there is a lot of anxiety in Shostakovich No.9, but as a man who grown in communist country I cant find any special merit in playing with censure. This was the way we lived once and I can understand this but I wouldn't rate the work basing on it.

I don't think there is anything which could be called 'anti-Beethoven' in writing music based on simply (or just no so dramatic) tunes. Beethoven No. 1 is much lighter in construction than famous symphonies of previous years and it is done so - without any doubt - by reason, as he usually tried in this years to make his music heavier than that of his predecessors. His No.8 is based on cheerful tunes but nevertheless it is full of dramatic tensions, especially in developments, probably no less  dramatic than in any other of his works. So it could be only objection about some bombastic cult of his music, which lead to overrating the value of numbers attributed to works, but I don't think it is a problem which is worth to make any action.

It is just still less in Shostakovich work for me than all that I owe to its rivals in this poll, or other Nos.9 which I like more than it (as this of VW). I feel no shame because of it, alas.

When I refer to 'anti-Beethoven,' I'm referring to only Shostakovich's 9th in relation to Beethoven's 9th and not any of either composer's other music. Surely, you're familiar with the 'ninth dilemma' and how many composer's died after composing their ninth symphonies? That's what I'm referring to and I believe you misunderstood what I was actually talking about. But now, you know.

[mszczuj]

Last movement of Das Lied von der Erde is almost the outer movements of the 9th rolled into one. There is both the funeral-like-march-like stuff of impending death, longing for life and finally withdrawal and dissolution/redemption.

I don't find anything like this in No.9 Final. For me it is warm, extatic and triumphant with dissolving only in the epilogue but it is dissolving in something which is infinitely higher that would be achievable before Final starts. But I don't find any resignation in any Mahler work. Even in Der Abschied is much more. On the other hand the last movement of No.3 was to me in some way the twin movement of that of No.9.

[mszczuj]

When I refer to 'anti-Beethoven,' I'm referring to only Shostakovich's 9th in relation to Beethoven's 9th and not any of either composer's other music. Surely, you're familiar with the 'ninth dilemma' and how many composer's died after composing their ninth symphonies? That's what I'm referring to and I believe you misunderstood what I was actually talking about. But now, you know.

I had understood it I hope, I just couldn't stop to make some 'pro-Beethoven' remarks while discussing with 'anti-Beethoven' listener.

[Minor Key]

I have a soft spot for Dvorak's ninth as it was the first symphony I really "got" and enjoyed. And I really love Schubert's ninth (although I like his eighth even more). My favorite has to be Mahler's, as it moves me like no other.