Author Topic: Possible future blind tests  (Read 7645 times)

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Offline Brian

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Re: Possible future blind tests
« Reply #20 on: November 21, 2014, 05:55:58 AM »
I'd suggest we focus on one cello suite at a time. Two rounds per: first round covers the first half, second round covers the whole suite. I also agree with Neal about dividing Sibelius 7 into only two rounds, not three.

Offline North Star

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Re: Possible future blind tests
« Reply #21 on: November 21, 2014, 05:59:41 AM »
I'd suggest we focus on one cello suite at a time. Two rounds per: first round covers the first half, second round covers the whole suite. I also agree with Neal about dividing Sibelius 7 into only two rounds, not three.
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Ken B

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Re: Possible future blind tests
« Reply #22 on: November 21, 2014, 09:08:32 AM »
That was Gaspard.  I didn't participate (knowing so little about the music) - but it was a great ride - thanks!
http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,21672.0.html


Well that's been 10 responses, thankyou, and I think the choice will come down to one of these:
(with apologies to those who, like me, were rooting for the Bartok)

* Bach Cello Suites
I estimate 21 starters in 3 groups of 7, 3 rounds
1st round would be 3 selected movements mixing fast, slow, major, minor totalling approx 11 minutes.
Final round would be a single complete suite, probably the 5th.


* Sibelius 7th Symphony
Again I estimate 21 starters in 3 groups of 7, 3 rounds
initially auditioning from ~2 minutes in to the 1st huge climax at ~13 minutes, so approx 11 minutes.
Final round would be the whole thing of course, approx 22 minutes.

or if you would prefer something short and sweet -

* Bach Orchestral Suite 1
10 runners and riders, 2 rounds, all done and dusted in a month?
1st round would be 3 selected movements totalling 7 or 8 minutes.  x5 that's just 40 minutes of listening in total.

Sib 7

Offline Wanderer

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Re: Possible future blind tests
« Reply #23 on: November 21, 2014, 09:52:01 AM »
+1 for Sibelius 7.

kishnevi

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Re: Possible future blind tests
« Reply #24 on: November 21, 2014, 10:14:28 AM »
I would be interested in organising one about a piece from Messiaen's Catalogue d'oiseaux. Or Carter's Night Fantasies. Or maybe a Stockhausen Klavierstuck. Or a Cage piano etude. Or a bit of Ludus Tonalis.

I would be interested in that.  But are there enough alternatives available to make a truly blind and truly competitive comparison?

Offline amw

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Re: Possible future blind tests
« Reply #25 on: November 22, 2014, 12:33:57 AM »
I see no reason why we can't start the Bach cello suites with a single movement (if we can find one that is sufficiently representative—perhaps the prelude to no. 5? Though I'd prefer the violin S&Ps for that reason as any of the fugues would be enough), then possibly moving on to a few selected movements and ending with a complete suite—or a wider selection of movements.

I agree that if you think of the suites as a 2-hour 'cycle' it would present logistical problems—I don't think that myself, but don't know how one would go about determining the best overall performance of all six suites without actually listening to them complete.

Might change vote to the Bach Orchestral Suite #1 then. (I have no interest in Sibelius at this time)

Offline aukhawk

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Re: Possible future blind tests
« Reply #26 on: November 22, 2014, 03:35:34 AM »
Thanks for all your comments and suggestions.  Well, there's no rush sorting this out, it's not going to happen before the New Year I guess.

Whole Cello Suites in final round - that would be out of the question as far as I'm concerned, and for several reasons (not least, that some of the Suites in my collection are incomplete sets).
In fact I have big reservations about presenting any work in its entirity, at any stage of any such comparison, for reasons of copyright infringement.  But it has been done here, and it obviously would be pretty unavoidable in Sibelius 7 for example.

So for the Cello Suites I'd end with a complete suite - 5th or 6th would be the obvious choices, my preference would be the 5th if only because in most performers' hands it's shorter - but also because I'd want to feature the 6th in the 2nd round, and movements from the 4th and 2nd in the first round.
I'm saying this now so that if you don't like that deal we can opt to do something else, such as the Sibelius, or find someone else to run the Bach.

Sibelius in 2 rounds - well yes I can see the advantages in that.  It would mean a very severe cull from round 1 to the final, really we'd need to start with 4 groups (of 5 probably) and that would depend on getting enough participants signing up - which I'm a bit doubtful would happen.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2014, 03:37:07 AM by aukhawk »

Offline EigenUser

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Re: Possible future blind tests
« Reply #27 on: November 22, 2014, 02:56:37 PM »
...Zzzzzzzzzzz...

We should have a Gruppen blind comparison -- using all two recordings! :laugh:
Beethoven's Op. 133 -- A fugue so bad that even Beethoven himself called it "Grosse".

Offline Brian

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Re: Possible future blind tests
« Reply #28 on: November 23, 2014, 08:03:58 PM »
By the way, I happen to think three-movement works totaling 20-30 minutes are ideal for the blind test format. Only three rounds, and each clip will be 10 minutes tops. This is part of why people stuck through the Ravel Gaspard game, and I think it means these games would be good for many, many great concertos, some 20th-century symphonies (e.g. Sibelius), Rachmaninov's symphonic dances, and the middle/late Beethoven piano sonatas.

Offline Mirror Image

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Re: Possible future blind tests
« Reply #29 on: November 23, 2014, 08:13:21 PM »
...Zzzzzzzzzzz...

We should have a Gruppen blind comparison -- using all two recordings! :laugh:

I was going to say Ades' "Asyla". ;)
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Offline amw

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Re: Possible future blind tests
« Reply #30 on: November 23, 2014, 08:17:48 PM »
A Prokofiev concerto might be interesting actually. My two favourites the Symphony-Concerto and VC2 are both over 30 minutes, but VC1 might be fun.

I would also be ok with Beethoven's Op. 31/2, 57, 101, 109, 110

or maybe Shostakovich's String Quartet No. 7, it's short enough and there aren't heaps of recordings, could be a quick game
« Last Edit: November 23, 2014, 08:20:55 PM by amw »

Offline Brian

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Re: Possible future blind tests
« Reply #31 on: November 23, 2014, 08:20:40 PM »
A Prokofiev concerto might be interesting actually. My two favourites the Symphony-Concerto and VC2 are both over 30 minutes, but VC1 might be fun.
VC2 is over 30 minutes?! You must have the Celibidache version...oh I bet you mean PC2.  :D I'm going to hijack the post to suggest VC2.

Offline amw

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Re: Possible future blind tests
« Reply #32 on: November 23, 2014, 08:24:00 PM »
VC2 is over 30 minutes?! You must have the Celibidache version...oh I bet you mean PC2.  :D I'm going to hijack the post to suggest VC2.
No I meant VC2, momentary brainfart caused me to add 12 + 10 + 6 up to 38 instead of 28. I swear not all arts students are this bad at maths.

Offline Brian

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Re: Possible future blind tests
« Reply #33 on: November 23, 2014, 08:28:10 PM »
No I meant VC2, momentary brainfart caused me to add 12 + 10 + 6 up to 38 instead of 28. I swear not all arts students are this bad at maths.
That's okay, I'm at the exact opposite end of the arts-student-math(s)-skills spectrum and it's pretty freaking lonely.

Ken B

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Re: Possible future blind tests
« Reply #34 on: November 23, 2014, 10:43:49 PM »
That's okay, I'm at the exact opposite end of the arts-student-math(s)-skills spectrum and it's pretty freaking lonely.
One of us is at the wrong end of the "understanding what that means" spectrum.

Offline Mirror Image

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Re: Possible future blind tests
« Reply #35 on: November 23, 2014, 11:29:43 PM »
I think we should have one of Ravel's "Ma mere l'oye".
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Offline EigenUser

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Re: Possible future blind tests
« Reply #36 on: November 24, 2014, 01:07:55 AM »
I think we should have one of Ravel's "Ma mere l'oye".
Yes!
Beethoven's Op. 133 -- A fugue so bad that even Beethoven himself called it "Grosse".

Offline North Star

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Re: Possible future blind tests
« Reply #37 on: November 24, 2014, 01:12:48 AM »
Solo piano, piano duo, orchestral suite or the extended ballet version? 8)
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Offline Brian

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Re: Possible future blind tests
« Reply #38 on: November 24, 2014, 05:44:56 AM »
Ken, I mean for an arts student I was unusually good at math(s), and didn't know anybody else like that.

Solo piano, piano duo, orchestral suite or the extended ballet version? 8)
The orchestral suite is dead to me. EVERY time I hear it, I think "hey, what happened to the rest of the music?" It's only about 12 minutes shorter, anyway. There is no excuse for it. Gosh, even thinking about it makes me angry.

Offline North Star

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Re: Possible future blind tests
« Reply #39 on: November 24, 2014, 06:02:41 AM »
Ken, I mean for an arts student I was unusually good at math(s), and didn't know anybody else like that.
The orchestral suite is dead to me. EVERY time I hear it, I think "hey, what happened to the rest of the music?" It's only about 12 minutes shorter, anyway. There is no excuse for it. Gosh, even thinking about it makes me angry.
I'm not sure I've ever heard it, myself.   8)
I have Dutoit & Martinon in the ballet, and in the original Argerich & Pletnev and Pascal & Denise-Francoise Rogé, and Argerich, Freire, Sadlo & Guggeis in the version with additional percussions. 99% of the time I listen to the piece it's Argerich & Pletnev or the Rogés.
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