Je suis Charlie

[Cosi bel do]

All terrorists now reported dead in both police assaults. Again, nothing else than a defeat. All the actions of these 3 tragic days will never be judged.

[Ken B]

My new avatar is from of my favourite covers by Charlie in recent years, drawn by Cabu.



"Let's throw all religions into the crapper."
The 3 rolls of toilet paper are the Bible, the Coran and the Torah.

C'est tres bien!

A friend who lived in Paris 30 years wrote me a great note on Charlie. He called it "all that's best about France": willing to skewer anyone, resolutely secular, fearless.

[Marc]

There's a battle going on in Paris. The war is world-wide.

Well, good luck with this war, then.
It's not mine.

My new avatar is from of my favourite covers by Charlie in recent years, drawn by Cabu.



"Let's throw all religions into the crapper."
The 3 rolls of toilet paper are the Bible, the Coran and the Torah.

Gods and religions are created by mankind.
"Let's throw all men (and women! All right Stan: AND WOMEN) into the crapper."

(Satire.)

Anyway, I'm leaving this thread with:

[Ken B]

Well, good luck with this war, then.
It's not mine.

"You may not be interested in war, but war is interested in you."

[Marc]

"You may not be interested in war, but war is interested in you."

(Hm, you 'forced' me to react. )

"You may not be interested in war, but war is interested in you."

A. Nonsense.
B. Bad translation of something Trotsky is said to have said. It's dialectic, not war, that's interested in you/me.

[Ken B]

(Hm, you 'forced' me to react. )

"You may not be interested in war, but war is interested in you."

A. Nonsense.

Tell that to those killed in the Paris market today, or the night club in Bali, or the buses in London, or ...

[Marc]

Tell that to those killed in the Paris market today, or the night club in Bali, or the buses in London, or ...

Again: good luck with this war then.
We have seen the great results of Bush's war on terror during the last dozen years or so.
Man, did we make the worldwide victims of terrorism happy with that.

War, that's what these extremists want.
Let's give it to them, shall we?

And let's take the satiric drawings of Charlie literally, just like those islam fanatics.
(Maybe you should reconsider your signature.)

Right now I'm watching French imam Hassan Chalgoumi on the telly.
He's a muslim and reads the Koran in a different way, like many other imams and muslims, and he's preaching that in his mosque.
"We have to preach against the fundamental interpretation of the Islam, because it's a lie".

In this thread, I miss the distinction between fanatic and radical Muslims and muslims in general.

We should try to reach out to the frustrated islamic youth in the western world (like the suburbs of large cities like Paris), together with those imams, and show them that a holy war isn't the answer to their problems and offer them civilized alternatives. That's what makes 'our' culture strong.
I won't give up believing in this strength of our world of freedom and tolerance.
Let's leave the war to the barbarians.

But hey, as I wrote earlier, war isn't interested in me, so this must be nothing but sissy blabbering.

[jochanaan]

Hmmm...Is the honor of the Prophet such a weak thing, that Muslims must kill to defend it?  As a Christian, I am naturally upset whenever the name of Jesus is dishonored (especially by those who take His Name for themselves!), but I believe that He will defend His own honor, eventually if not immediately, without any help from me.

[The new erato]

In this thread, I miss the distinction between fanatic and radical Muslims and muslims in general.

In fact, many of them seem like poor losers only adapting an Islamic image to get an excuse to get back at society. Our own Norwegian terrorist, ABB, certainly fit into that mold, but had to invent his own ideology to justify his revenge on society.

[Marc]

Hmmm...Is the honor of the Prophet such a weak thing, that Muslims must kill to defend it?  As a Christian, I am naturally upset whenever the name of Jesus is dishonored (especially by those who take His Name for themselves!), but I believe that He will defend His own honor, eventually if not immediately, without any help from me.

This.

And:

Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth. But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.

(I don't believe in Jesus btw. (Sorry for that.) But I respect him a.o. for this quote.)

[Marc]

In fact, many of them seem like poor losers only adapting an Islamic image to get an excuse to get back at society. Our own Norwegian terrorist, ABB, certainly fit into that mold, but had to invent his own ideology to justify his revenge on society.

Well, some of the true warriors who truly believe that Islam is nothing but terror and war (unlike many other ideologies?), have written the imprisoned ABB letters of respect. Now that's civilization.

[Ken B]

Again: good luck with this war then.
We have seen the great results of Bush's war on terror during the last dozen years or so.
Man, did we make the worldwide victims of terrorism happy with that.

War, that's what these extremists want.
Let's give it to them, shall we?

And let's take the satiric drawings of Charlie literally, just like those islam fanatics.
(Maybe you should reconsider your signature.)

Right now I'm watching French imam Hassan Chalgoumi on the telly.
He's a muslim and reads the Koran in a different way, like many other imams and muslims, and he's preaching that in his mosque.
"We have to preach against the fundamental interpretation of the Islam, because it's a lie".

In this thread, I miss the distinction between fanatic and radical Muslims and muslims in general.

We should try to reach out to the frustrated islamic youth in the western world (like the suburbs of large cities like Paris), together with those imams, and show them that a holy war isn't the answer to their problems and offer them civilized alternatives. That's what makes 'our' culture strong.
I won't give up believing in this strength of our world of freedom and tolerance.
Let's leave the war to the barbarians.

But hey, as I wrote earlier, war isn't interested in me, so this must be nothing but sissy blabbering.

Wow. What a spectacular display of misreading a comment. Let me spell it out. One commenter remarked there was a war going on in Paris this moment. That's a metaphor. I pointed out that Paris isn't an isolated example. I re-used the metaphor to do so. The war is fought by Salafist-style muslim fundamentalists against the rest of Islam and the west, and decency in general. It is being fought by ISIS against Iraqis and the Taliban against school-girls as well as against Charlie Hebdo.

And no, I won't rethink my signature. Allowing the extremists easy victories over the west builds their prestige and their power.

[Ken B]

OK Marc, I confess I am curious. Which part of my signature do you disapprove of?

Is it "Je suis Charlie?"

Is it where I link to Islamic drawings to make the point that the extremist interpretation of the Koran is not the only one, and that Islamic history supports other less belicose readings?

Is it the South Park clip?

[Marc]

OK Marc, I confess I am curious. Which part of my signature do you disapprove of?

Is it "Je suis Charlie?"

Is it where I link to Islamic drawings to make the point that the extremist interpretation of the Koran is not the only one, and that Islamic history supports other less belicose readings?

Is it the South Park clip?

It was the "Charlie" part.
I believe that Charlie disagreed with the "there's a war going on". Therefore they answer(ed) with mocking and satiric drawings to those extremist losers who want everyone to believe that there really is a war: there's not a war going on, you are all screwed up.

I don't believe there's really a world wide war between the 'west' and the 'Islam', either.
I do believe that this is made up by people who feel better when they're in a war situation. No matter if they're non-believers, communists, democrats, republicans, Christians, Muslims, Hindu or whatever.
I don't believe that Islam is the problem. It could have been the other way around in a different situation. It's just about people who are abusing a certain ideology to explain away frustration and violence.
IMO, their easiest victory would be agreeing there really is a war.

But yes, this all might well be a minor issue, because now I read your comment I think that your suggestion of misunderstanding between us (starting with the war-metaphor-thing) is probably right.
So I apologize for that.
I just had a feeling that, because of your enlargement of my metaphorical comment, you were taking a different position.

OTOH, we do take different positions if it's about "the war is interested in you" matter.
And I don't think that we help the victims of terrorism to make the entire world a place of war between ideologies who intrinsically are the same for about 90%. (I do not have scientific proof for this percentage, though. )
I prefer the way of trying to find the cause of hate and from there on try to 'make sense' with the self-appointed enemy.

And I also think that I myself, being a laborious non-native (English/American) speaker/reader with not that much interest to discuss about politics/war/ideologies/et cetera, should stay clear from The Diner, except for the pop music and film threads. I've told myself this many times before but apparantly sometimes it's too difficult to stay away. I just felt very bad and emotional the last few days because of the Paris terror (being Dutch, it reminded me of the murder of Theo van Gogh in 2004), and I wanted to support Charlie to honour their satiric qualities. But before I know it, I'm into a discussion that I never pursued.

So, there's less war going on between us as it seemed at first, and, even if there was a 'true war in words' going on in which we really disagreed firmly, then I probably would have ended it with: even though I despise your point of view, I will support your right to express it.

[Ken B]

It was the "Charlie" part.
I believe that Charlie disagreed with the "there's a war going on". Therefore they answer(ed) with mocking and satiric drawings to those extremist losers who want everyone to believe that there really is a war: there's not a war going on, you are all screwed up.

I don't believe there's really a world wide war between the 'west' and the 'Islam', either.
I do believe that this is made up by people who feel better when they're in a war situation. No matter if they're non-believers, communists, democrats, republicans, Christians, Muslims, Hindu or whatever.
I don't believe that Islam is the problem. It could have been the other way around in a different situation. It's just about people who are abusing a certain ideology to explain away frustration and violence.
IMO, their easiest victory would be agreeing there really is a war.

But yes, this all might well be a minor issue, because now I read your comment I think that your suggestion of misunderstanding between us (starting with the war-metaphor-thing) is probably right.
So I apologize for that.
I just had a feeling that, because of your enlargement of my metaphorical comment, you were taking a different position.

OTOH, we do take different positions if it's about "the war is interested in you" matter.
And I don't think that we help the victims of terrorism to make the entire world a place of war between ideologies who intrinsically are the same for about 90%. (I do not have scientific proof for this percentage, though. )
I prefer the way of trying to find the cause of hate and from there on try to 'make sense' with the self-appointed enemy.

And I also think that I myself, being a laborious non-native (English/American) speaker/reader with not that much interest to discuss about politics/war/ideologies/et cetera, should stay clear from The Diner, except for the pop music and film threads. I've told myself this many times before but apparantly sometimes it's too difficult to stay away. I just felt very bad and emotional the last few days because of the Paris terror (being Dutch, it reminded me of the murder of Theo van Gogh in 2004), and I wanted to support Charlie to honour their satiric qualities. But before I know it, I'm into a discussion that I never pursued.

So, there's less war going on between us as it seemed at first, and, even if there was a 'true war in words' going on in which we really disagreed firmly, then I probably would have ended it with: even though I despise your point of view, I will support your right to express it.

Okay, we just had a communication problem. Peace. (Well. Peace together with relentless mockery of religion  )

[Florestan]

The cartoonists of Charlie Hebdo are celebrated (rightly so!) as martyrs of the freedom of speech. It is in honoring their legacy that I freely speak my own mind.

1. First and foremost, I am a believing, though not practicing, Christian of the Orthodox faith. In all my good conscience, with all my heart , and of my own free will I believe, subscribe and confess the Creed or Symbol of Faith.

2. Second most importantly, I am a liberal*, precisely because I am a Christian of the Orthodox faith.

* etymologically, liberal comes from Latin and has two meanings: (1) > liberalitas, meaning "generosity", as in "giving liberally" and (2) > liberalis, meaning "worthy of a free person ", as in "master of liberal arts".

3. I have never ever read Charlie Hebdo and I was only vaguely aware of its existence until these recent events.

4. It seems that they made it their program and creed to mock and desecrate each and any religious faith and symbols thereof, be it Islam, Judaism or Christianity.

5. It was their inalienable right to do so.

6. I believe that having the right to do something is not at all the same as being right in doing it.

7. By their cartoons they might have deeply hurt my personal feelings, yet I´d have never thought of killing them all for that.

8. Cutting a long story short, I can produce hundreds of verses from both the Old and the New Testament condemning violence and extolling pacifism without any qualification of race or creed; I defy the apologists of Islam as a "relligion of peace" to produce one single verse from the Quran in the same vein.

9. Those of you who have cared to actually read the Quran, raise your hand!

10. To hear that France is the mother and father of laicity and freedom of speech is preposterous. President Hollande did not care to wish the majoritarian French Christians "Merry Christmas!" , yet he was only too eager to compliment the minoritarian Muslims on the Ramadan... And The French Revolution was one of the worst offenders against freedom of speech the history has ever known...

11. Multiculturalism and political correctness were from their beginnings, are right now, and forever will be, sad and tragic testimonies to human idiocy.

12. The cartoonists of Charlie Hebdo were not the first, nor will they be the last, victims of the stupidity, ignorance, irresponsibility and cowardice of the Western European mainstream politicians of the last 50 years, Left and Right alike.

13. When nobody except the fools are willing to call a spade a spade, let nobody be astonished that it is the fools who will win the elections.

14. Read Genesis 16, for the most accurate prediction of the times we are living in.

[Florestan]

I don't believe that Islam is the problem.

Of course not. It´s all about Buddhism and ancient Greek Polytheism.

[Ken B]

The cartoonists of Charlie Hebdo are celebrated (rightly so!) as martyrs of the freedom of speech. It is in honoring their legacy that I freely speak my own mind.

1. First and foremost, I am a believing, though not practicing, Christian of the Orthodox faith. In all my good conscience, with all my heart , and of my own free will I believe, subscribe and confess the Creed or Symbol of Faith.

2. Second most importantly, I am a liberal*, precisely because I am a Christian of the Orthodox faith.

* etymologically, liberal comes from Latin and has two meanings: (1) > liberalitas, meaning "generosity", as in "giving liberally" and (2) > liberalis, meaning "worthy of a free person ", as in "master of liberal arts".

3. I have never ever read Charlie Hebdo and I was only vaguely aware of its existence until these recent events.

4. It seems that they made it their program and creed to mock and desecrate each and any religious faith and symbols thereof, be it Islam, Judaism or Christianity.

5. It was their inalienable right to do so.

6. I believe that having the right to do something is not at all the same as being right in doing it.

7. By their cartoons they might have deeply hurt my personal feelings, yet I´d have never thought of killing them all for that.

8. Cutting a long story short, I can produce hundreds of verses from both the Old and the New Testament condemning violence and extolling pacifism without any qualification of race or creed; I defy the apologists of Islam as a "relligion of peace" to produce one single verse from the Quran in the same vein.

9. Those of you who have cared to actually read the Quran, raise your hand!

10. To hear that France is the mother and father of laicity and freedom of speech is preposterous. President Hollande did not care to wish the majoritarian French Christians "Merry Christmas!" , yet he was only too eager to compliment the minoritarian Muslims on the Ramadan... And The French Revolution was one of the worst offenders against freedom of speech the history has ever known...

11. Multiculturalism and political correctness were from their beginnings, are right now, and forever will be, sad and tragic testimonies to human idiocy.

12. The cartoonists of Charlie Hebdo were not the first, nor will they be the last, victims of the stupidity, ignorance, irresponsibility and cowardice of the Western European mainstream politicians of the last 50 years, Left and Right alike.

13. When nobody except the fools are willing to call a spade a spade, let nobody be astonished that it is the fools who will win the elections.

14. Read Genesis 16, for the most accurate prediction of the times we are living in.

re 9


and



because I have read it in two translations, one a traditional direct one, and one with the verses re-arranged to be in the chronological order most muslim scholars advance.

I have also read several collections of selected hadith including a translation of abu Muslim.

As well as many books on the formation of Islam, hadith, isnads, biographies of Muhammed based on muslim sources, and the early history of the Koran.

[Florestan]

re 9


and



because I have read it in two translations, one a traditional direct one, and one with the verses re-arranged to be in the chronological order most muslim scholars advance.

I have also read several collections of selected hadith including a translation of abu Muslim.

As well as many books on the formation of Islam, hadith, isnads, biographies of Muhammed based on muslim sources, and the early history of the Koran.

Great! Then you should be able to produce at least one verse of it extolling non-violence and condemning violence without any qualifications of race and creed. You´ll make my day by so doing, honestly.

[Wanderer]

8. Cutting a long story short, I can produce hundreds of verses from both the Old and the New Testament condemning violence and extolling pacifism without any qualification of race or creed; I defy the apologists of Islam as a "relligion of peace" to produce one single verse from the Quran in the same vein.

And in the words of the Byzantine emperor Manuel II Palaiologos: "Show me just what Mohammed brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached."

It was this exact quote by Pope Benedict XVI in a 2006 lecture at Regensburg that caused some uproar at the time, presumably for being too true for hypocrite ears.