New to Wagner - Just purchased this big box set.

[Chris L.]

Note: I moved this post from "Purchases Today" because I felt it might fit better here.

Other then listening to piecemeal vocal excerpts and orchestral highlights recordings of Wagner's music on occasion, I'm basically a newbie, never having listened to or seen one of his operas in it's entirety. I got this 50 CD box at 50% off from Half Price Books for little more then $30. I know that most of the recordings here are historical mono, but at around 0.65 a disc it was almost as if I stole this set, so I can deal with the less then stellar sound quality.

Looking for advice on where to start with this box. Do I jump into the Ring saga at the beginning from disc 1 or should I start off with one of the smaller operas first (if anyone can call a Wagner opera "small" with a straight face)?

Finding any decent info on this set was difficult, so here are some excerpts of reviews I found on Amazon, with some editing work done by myself:

"This 50 CD set contains 11 complete operas, three are in stereo, the rest in mono. The excerpts are from 1904 to 1960. An 88 page booklet contains a history of Bayreuth and photos associated with Wagner. The discs are housed in a heavy cardboard box with a lid. The CD's are placed in cardboard sleeves, with the opera, names of the singers, conductor, etc. with tracking numbers guiding you to the various pieces of the opera.

Gems abound in this box. Every recording an excellent pick from the early years of Bayreuth. Most are taken from the fifties when Varnay, Modl, Hotter, Nilsson, Windgassen, etc., ruled. As well as the 4-Ks... Knappertsbusch, Keilberth, Krauss and Karajan. Those who do not have these will discover a vast Wagnerian treasure and will wallow in some of the greatest opera performances ever caught live on the Bayreuth stage. The Ring itself is worth the price of this set.

Transfers are good and the excerpts will allow the listener to sample other productions from the years of great Wagnerian singing; e.g. Rhinegold conducted by Clemens Krauss in 1953. Walkure conducted by Knapertsbusch in 1958, with Vickers, Rysanek, Varnay and Hotter. Siegfried Cond. by Keilberth 1953, with Modl, Windgassen, Hotter etc. Gotterdammerung cond. by Kempe in 1960. Tristan und Isolde with Modl and Suthaus cond. by Von Karajan in 1951, etc. The earliest recordings from 1904 will demonstrate how singers were instructed to sing Wagner, perhaps from Cosima Wagner herself, in the true Wagner tradition of that era. Fortunately, that era has passed. A bad case of the nerves seem to trouble a few of these singers. Interesting, though.

The Flying Dutchman, Lohengrin and Kempe's Gotterdammerung are in STEREO. I was asked this question by an American reviewer, and he could not believe it! He had been looking for these particular performances in stereo. The stereo recordings are excellent but there seems to be no movement of singers or separation of instruments in the orchestra. All is stationary. No doubt tapes from a radio archive were used. Some of the excerpts are in stereo as well. There is also a radio broadcast of Die Meistersinger with von Karajan conducting in '51 Bayreuth circulating along with the same production edited by EMI. That is probably the case here. The complete radio production sounds better and has the same cast. The Meistersinger in this box sounds much better than the EMI version. The Parsifal is a real prize along with 2-discs of excerpts from various outings".

[Chris L.]

Hmm... not a whole lot going on in the Opera/Vocal Dept. I see.

[Karl Henning]

When Marvin gets wind of this, he will shake your hand vigorously! 

[mc ukrneal]

Yeah, opera is less of an interest for most here. And of those of us left, some are more interested in one or another period/style.

I don't know that box, but it certainly seems to have some good versions of the operas. Where to start is an interesting question. The Flying Hollander will give you an idea of the early style. It's quite lively, but if you compare it to Parsifal, for example, you might immediately see the difference in how he developed (Parsifal being his last opera). Rhiengold, the first of the Ring series, is another potential starting point. WIth the Ring, it is useful to understand (and know) the different leitmotifs (these are musical phrases/themes/musical progressions that are used to represent different characters, objects, emotions, etc. These themes sometimes change or are used in clever ways and can be thought of as signposts as you watch the 'action' on stage. Knowing them helps, and if you like what you hear, there are a number of resources on that (one is a double-disc of Derryck Cooke using the Solti ring to show many (all?) of the leitmotifs. Knowing them is not a requirement, but helps to connect things in such a long opera.

Personally, I'd start with a single opera (not Ring) not named Parsifal. I love Parsifal, but understanding (or adjusting to) Wagner's language a bit first can be very helpful. Tristan and Isolde or Mesitersinger is a good starting point. But they are all very good operas, so go with whatever tickles your fancy.

[Karl Henning]

Dutchman is a good bite-sized opera.

[jochanaan]

The first Ring opera, Das Rheingold, is actually very short for Wagner, being "only" one act, and it has some very exciting music.  (Love the "forging" scene!)  Warning: it may drag you under its spell as the Rhinemaidens drag Alberich under the Rhine, so that you'll have to set aside 24 hours or so to finish up the set!

[Chris L.]

Yeah, opera is less of an interest for most here. And of those of us left, some are more interested in one or another period/style.

I don't know that box, but it certainly seems to have some good versions of the operas. Where to start is an interesting question. The Flying Hollander will give you an idea of the early style. It's quite lively, but if you compare it to Parsifal, for example, you might immediately see the difference in how he developed (Parsifal being his last opera). Rhiengold, the first of the Ring series, is another potential starting point. WIth the Ring, it is useful to understand (and know) the different leitmotifs (these are musical phrases/themes/musical progressions that are used to represent different characters, objects, emotions, etc. These themes sometimes change or are used in clever ways and can be thought of as signposts as you watch the 'action' on stage. Knowing them helps, and if you like what you hear, there are a number of resources on that (one is a double-disc of Derryck Cooke using the Solti ring to show many (all?) of the leitmotifs. Knowing them is not a requirement, but helps to connect things in such a long opera.

Personally, I'd start with a single opera (not Ring) not named Parsifal. I love Parsifal, but understanding (or adjusting to) Wagner's language a bit first can be very helpful. Tristan and Isolde or Mesitersinger is a good starting point. But they are all very good operas, so go with whatever tickles your fancy.

This sounds like a good idea, start with the earliest opera in the box first and then the final opera after that. Or I could just listen to them chronologically. Was The Ring saga done chronologically or did he do other operas in between the segments? I can focus on the complete operas, and skip over all the excerpts from the various performances that are included in this set for now.

Of course, it would be the most helpful to actually SEE one of the operas performed with subtitles, but I'll get into that later when my budget allows.

[mc ukrneal]

This sounds like a good idea, start with the earliest opera in the box first and then the final opera after that. Or I could just listen to them chronologically. Was The Ring saga done chronologically or did he do other operas in between the segments? I can focus on the complete operas, and skip over all the excerpts from the various performances that are included in this set for now.

Of course, it would be the most helpful to actually SEE one of the operas performed with subtitles, but I'll get into that later when my budget allows.

He did not write the Ring without interuption. Both Tristan and Meistersinger were written after he had started Siegfried. He then completed Siegfried and Gotterdammerung. Tristan is often seen as a watershed moment as it is sort of a beginning for 20th century works. But even in the Ring as a whole, you can see how the texture of the work becomes more complicated.

I bet youtube has something you can watch.

[San Antone]

Odd for me, yesterday I was listening to Tristan und Isolde.  Despite my overall animus towards Wagner, this work I find very listenable.

Spotify has the other big box of Wagner, so I guess I will expand into other operas, although I know from experience I am not up to the Ring.

[ritter]

Das Rheingold was what got me hooked on Wagner as a teenager. I asked my father to buy it for me (on LP), not knowing very well who Wagner was, just because I found the title intriguing. Well, that was more than 35 years ago, and my passion for Wagner has only increased since then.

I also think that with Rheingold you get the mature Wagner in a manageable size, and then you can proceed either to the rest of the Ring (no need to take on the whole Ring in one go  ), to the earlier operas or to the later stuff.

My two cents worth...

[mc ukrneal]

Odd for me, yesterday I was listening to Tristan und Isolde.  Despite my overall animus towards Wagner, this work I find very listenable.

Spotify has the other big box of Wagner, so I guess I will expand into other operas, although I know from experience I am not up to the Ring.

Based on your interest in more modern classical music, I am not surprised you would find Tristan of interest. It is essentially at the beginning of the fork that leads you to some of the sound/style we hear from even living composers. The influence of Tristan is pretty remarkable - you may be interested to read more about it.

[Mirror Image]

I, too, was surprised by sanantonio's foray into Tristan und Isolde. Glad to hear it was an enjoyable listening experience. I haven't heard this opera in a few years, but recall being moved by it.

[Mirror Image]

As for the OP, Chris L., that looks like a neat box set. I don't know much about it, but the first Wagner anything I bought was Adrian Boult's set of overtures and preludes from the various operas on EMI. I really enjoyed the music and loved the dramatic quality of the music. From here, I bought two Ring sets: Solti and Karajan. Karajan's is the set that sold me on Wagner and I never really looked back. I don't listen to opera much, admittedly, but I spent a good portion of a summer several years ago and listened to Wagner's major operas or, at least, what I considered to be major. Parsifal, Tristan und Isolde, and Das Rheingold ended up becoming my favorites.

[Chris L.]

Isn't The Ring saga meant to be taken in as one big epic, sort of like The Lord of the Rings with it's three parts coming together as a continuous climatic story? I understand musically speaking one can listen to it in bits and pieces like a movie soundtrack, but if one were watching it for the first time doesn't one need to see all four operas in the correct order to have a clear understanding of what it's all about?

[ritter]

Isn't The Ring saga meant to be taken in as one big epic, sort of like The Lord of the Rings with it's three parts coming together as a continuous climatic story? I understand musically speaking one can listen to it in bits and pieces like a movie soundtrack, but if one were watching it for the first time doesn't one need to see all four operas in the correct order to have a clear understanding of what it's all about?

I would start with Rheingold, then on to Walküre and so forth. But not necessarily in one go: you can listen to Rheingold, then jump to e.g. Tannhäuser or whatever, return to the Ring for Walküre, etc., etc. The Ring is one big dramatic whole, and very consitent musically---even if there is a significant advance in Götterdämmerung comaped to Rheingold; but it also is composed of 4 operas which can be enjoyed on their own. It's llike Proust's Remeberance of things past...it's parts are great, the whole is probably more than just the sum of the parts.

[San Antone]

I suppose if one were to approach the work logically (somewhat of a oxymoron; a logical Ring?) - there are a couple of recordings (Deryck Cooke?) explaining the Ring with highlights.  I even have one of them.   But can't get through it, much less the entire work.

On a more serious note, maybe one of the complete DVD sets would be the way to go.  I have the Met Ring and have watched one of the operas and it made understanding very easy.  Not that it's any help to actually know what is going on, in fact, it might be a hindrance.

[Karl Henning]

Isn't The Ring saga meant to be taken in as one big epic, sort of like The Lord of the Rings with it's three parts coming together as a continuous climatic story? I understand musically speaking one can listen to it in bits and pieces like a movie soundtrack, but if one were watching it for the first time doesn't one need to see all four operas in the correct order to have a clear understanding of what it's all about?

This is likely why I have yet to assay the Ring . . . much as I do enjoy and admire Parsifal, for instance, I have not yet listened to it in one uninterrupted dosage.

I'm basically waiting for that time when, on listening to the Ring, I do not find myself losing patience with it.

[Mirror Image]

Isn't The Ring saga meant to be taken in as one big epic, sort of like The Lord of the Rings with it's three parts coming together as a continuous climatic story? I understand musically speaking one can listen to it in bits and pieces like a movie soundtrack, but if one were watching it for the first time doesn't one need to see all four operas in the correct order to have a clear understanding of what it's all about?

If you think you can listen to The Ring in one-go, then my hat is off to you. For me, it's impossible. You have to remember that this is a 14 hour (give or take) cycle. It's best listened to one opera at a time IMHO. Personally, I don't really follow the story line or anything, I just listen to the music. I don't care much for the singing either, but, again, that's something I can tune out with no problem. I have what some may refer to as the Brucknerian approach to Wagner.

[Lisztianwagner]

Isn't The Ring saga meant to be taken in as one big epic, sort of like The Lord of the Rings with it's three parts coming together as a continuous climatic story? I understand musically speaking one can listen to it in bits and pieces like a movie soundtrack, but if one were watching it for the first time doesn't one need to see all four operas in the correct order to have a clear understanding of what it's all about?

Yes, indeed; if you start listening to the Tetralogy, I think that's better to follow the correct order of the cycle (Das Rheingold, Die Walküre, Siegfried and Götterdämmerung) to understand the development of both the story and the characters more clearly. It would be a little hard to listen to the whole Tetralogy in one-go, it would take too much time (not less than 14 hours, it depends on the conductor); I remember, when I started my wagnerian journey into the Ring Cycle for the first time, I listened to Das Rheingold, Die Walküre and the first act of Siegfried in a row; it was too immersive and hauntingly beautiful!
Wagner's Ring is sometimes compared to a giant symphony too, with every music drama as a specific movement (Siegfried, for example, would be the Scherzo).

If you think you can listen to The Ring in one-go, then my hat is off to you. For me, it's impossible. You have to remember that this is a 14 hour (give or take) cycle. It's best listened to one opera at a time IMHO. Personally, I don't really follow the story line or anything, I just listen to the music. I don't care much for the singing either, but, again, that's something I can tune out with no problem. I have what some may refer to as the Brucknerian approach to Wagner.

Oh, but you can't only focus on the music and ignore the rest, Wagner's art is Gesamtkunstwerk!

[jochanaan]

Ideally, Wagner intended his Ring to be performed on four successive nights.  (Very very demanding for the singers singing Wotan and Brunnhilde, and almost physically impossible for the orchestra players! )