Countdown to Extinction: The 2016 Presidential Election

[Ken B]

Since you're determined to keep justifying yourself, let's look at what you actually said: "Trump, like Obama, regardless of facts or substance projects an image of what people want to see in their country." No qualifications on these "people," no nuance. There was no reading impairment on my part.

I remember another time when you attacked me for alleged "reading impairment," when I in fact quoted your exact words to make my point. So let's knock off the accusations, OK? I'm not impressed.

Are you serious? I made a statement about what *some people* see in Trump. You read that as me saying that's what *I* like in Trump.

And not that it's relevant but it's just wrong to say there was no qualification on people. The topic was why people like Trump. That means why some people, the group of people who like Trump, do so. 

[Todd]

Nice try, but a condition does not require a diagnosis in order to exist.

True, however, you are offering a diagnosis.  Are you a mental health professional who has worked with Trump?

Over the past, what, five to ten years, it has been intellectually fashionable to label this or that person a sociopath, or whatnot.  It's intellectually lazy and dishonest.  Why not just say that Trump is a douchenozzle? 

[(poco) Sforzando]

True, however, you are offering a diagnosis.  Are you a mental health professional who has worked with Trump?

Over the past, what, five to ten years, it has been intellectually fashionable to label this or that person a sociopath, or whatnot.  It's intellectually lazy and dishonest.  Why not just say that Trump is a douchenozzle?

http://www.md-health.com/Sociopath-Traits.html
According to ICD-10 criteria, presence of 3 or more of the following qualifies for the diagnosis of antisocial personality disorder (~sociopathy):

- Callous unconcern for the feelings of others.
- Gross and persistent attitude of irresponsibility and disregard for social norms, and obligations.
- Incapacity to maintain enduring relationships, though having no difficulty in establishing them.
- Very low tolerance to frustration, a low threshold for discharge of aggression, including violence.
- Incapacity to experience guilt or to profit from experience, particularly punishment.
- Markedly prone to blame others or to offer plausible rationalization for the behavior that has brought the person into conflict with society.

Works for me. You can go on with your accusations till the cows come home (intellectually lazy, dishonest, petty, whatever).

ETA:
http://www.forbes.com/sites/jeffbercovici/2011/06/14/why-some-psychopaths-make-great-ceos/

Money quote: "There are absolutes in psychopathy and the main absolute is a literal absence of empathy. It's just not there. In higher-scoring psychopaths, what grows in the vacant field where that empathy should be is a joy in manipulating people, a lack of remorse, a lack of guilt. If you've got a little bit of empathy, you're kind of not a psychopath."

Are you going to accuse this author of intellectual laziness and dishonesty too?

[Todd]

http://www.md-health.com/Sociopath-Traits.html
According to ICD-10 criteria, presence of 3 or more of the following qualifies for the diagnosis of antisocial personality disorder (~sociopathy):

- Callous unconcern for the feelings of others.
- Gross and persistent attitude of irresponsibility and disregard for social norms, and obligations.
- Incapacity to maintain enduring relationships, though having no difficulty in establishing them.
- Very low tolerance to frustration, a low threshold for discharge of aggression, including violence.
- Incapacity to experience guilt or to profit from experience, particularly punishment.
- Markedly prone to blame others or to offer plausible rationalization for the behavior that has brought the person into conflict with society.

Works for me. You can go on with your accusations till the cows come home (intellectually lazy, dishonest, petty, whatever).

This is a standard reply from people attempting to misuse clinical diagnoses for political purposes.  ("See, see, he does these things, therefore he must be a sociopath!")  It's actually something of a shame to see you double down.  Trump is a douchenozzle, I think that much is clear.  Insisting that he is a sociopath because of what you see on TV doesn't change the fact that you are simply engaging in name calling and attempting to present it as something else.

[(poco) Sforzando]

This is a standard reply from people attempting to misuse clinical diagnoses for political purposes.  ("See, see, he does these things, therefore he must be a sociopath!")  It's actually something of a shame to see you double down.  Trump is a douchenozzle, I think that much is clear.  Insisting that he is a sociopath because of what you see on TV doesn't change the fact that you are simply engaging in name calling and attempting to present it as something else.

Do you deny he meets several of the criteria?

[ibanezmonster]

Regardless, he should be evaluated psychologically by a professional, and if he really is diagnosed a sociopath, he shouldn't be eligible to run as president. I don't see how letting a sociopath run the country could possibly be a good thing.

[Karl Henning]

Regardless, he should be evaluated psychologically by a professional, and if he really is diagnosed a sociopath, he shouldn't be eligible to run as president.

Egad, you'll be wanting to do that with prospective Senators and Congressmen, next!

[(poco) Sforzando]

Regardless, he should be evaluated psychologically by a professional, and if he really is diagnosed a sociopath, he shouldn't be eligible to run as president. I don't see how letting a sociopath run the country could possibly be a good thing.

Unfortunately the Constitution does not preclude sociopathy or psychopathy as a condition of eligiblity, only being younger than 35 years or not born in this country.

[Ken B]

http://www.md-health.com/Sociopath-Traits.html
According to ICD-10 criteria, presence of 3 or more of the following qualifies for the diagnosis of antisocial personality disorder (~sociopathy):

- Callous unconcern for the feelings of others.
- Gross and persistent attitude of irresponsibility and disregard for social norms, and obligations.
- Incapacity to maintain enduring relationships, though having no difficulty in establishing them.
- Very low tolerance to frustration, a low threshold for discharge of aggression, including violence.
- Incapacity to experience guilt or to profit from experience, particularly punishment.
- Markedly prone to blame others or to offer plausible rationalization for the behavior that has brought the person into conflict with society.

Works for me.

ETA:
http://www.forbes.com/sites/jeffbercovici/2011/06/14/why-some-psychopaths-make-great-ceos/

What Todd said. Plus get a grip. You know nothing about Trump and these summarized bullet points. Take just the first. "Callous unconcern for the feelings of others." That's just you labeling your dislike of his policies. What the bullet point refers to is a thorough-going callous unconcern in his life, not advocating policies you think unfeeling, and you have no evidence for that at all.

Or the low frustration theshhold. Did you note "including violence"? I suspect Trump has way too low a threshold for a president, but he's not a wife-beater. He's never been accused of violence that I know of. He's been accused of crudity and rudeness, which ain't what the bullet point means.

And let me emphasize bullet point. What you posted is NOT what is taught to clinical psychologists. It's just ridiculous to offer a diagnosis of someone you have never met, and know litle of, on the basis of a half page summary cribbed from the DSM.

[Todd]

Do you deny he meets several of the criteria?

A question of some merit for true believers in pop psychology, I suppose.  I only know what I see on TV and in print.  That may or may not be a reliable indicator of what he is really like.  I can neither confirm nor deny he actually meets those criteria, and neither can you.

Bercovici and Ronson are journalists, not mental health professionals, and they are after clicks and sales, so their assessment of who is and who is not a sociopath or psychopath is of dubious value.  When Chainsaw Al is the first name trotted out, I see sensationalism at its finest.

Your fixation on Trump is a bit odd, I must say, but the man knows how to capture people's attention and hold it, that much is clear.

[Ken B]

Do you deny he meets several of the criteria?

I deny that you or I can know whether he meets the actual clinical criteria that are summarized in those points, yes.

But let's look.

1. Sometimes I expect so, but sometimes won't cut it. You need a "pervasive pattern" according to the DSM IV.

2. Absolutely I deny it. Trump has a reputation of being a man of his word, and reliable in business and other dealings.

3. On what basis do you say this? His penchant for attractive women? I have no idea of his family or long term friendships. Do you?

4. No violence. Denied. Being a thin skinned asshat is not the same.

5. Again, how do we know. I expect he has learnt a lot from experience.

6. Did you notice this is about being in conflict with society? trump isn't. He's establishment, and he currently leads the polls. Not remotely "in conflict with society."

This is a stupid conversation. I have a friend who was head of psychiatry at a major hospital before retiring this year. He would never diagnose someone he's never seen. But I will ask him about your contention.

[(poco) Sforzando]

What Todd said. Plus get a grip. You know nothing about Trump and these summarized bullet points. Take just the first. "Callous unconcern for the feelings of others." That's just you labeling your dislike of his policies. What the bullet point refers to is a thorough-going callous unconcern in his life, not advocating policies you think unfeeling, and you have no evidence for that at all.

Or the low frustration theshhold. Did you note "including violence"? I suspect Trump has way too low a threshold for a president, but he's not a wife-beater. He's never been accused of violence that I know of. He's been accused of crudity and rudeness, which ain't what the bullet point means.

And let me emphasize bullet point. What you posted is NOT what is taught to clinical psychologists. It's just ridiculous to offer a diagnosis of someone you have never met, and know litle of, on the basis of a half page summary cribbed from the DSM.

I more than have a grip. The criteria cited must not all be met for the condition to exist, and what I has not so much to do with dislike of policies as with his explicit indifference to his tone. Some quotations:

"I have black guys counting my money. ... I hate it. The only guys I want counting my money are short guys that wear yarmulkes all day." (USA Today, May 20, 1991)
"Oftentimes when I was sleeping with one of the top women in the world I would say to myself, thinking about me as a boy from Queens, 'Can you believe what I am getting?' " ("Think Big: Make it Happen in Business and Life," 2008)
"... she does have a very nice figure. I've said if Ivanka weren't my daughter, perhaps I'd be dating her." (ABC's "The View," March 6, 2006)
"If Hillary Clinton can't satisfy her husband what makes her think she can satisfy America?" (Twitter, April 16, 2015)
"Rosie's a person that's very lucky to have her girlfriend. And she better be careful or I'll send one of my friends over to pick up her girlfriend. Why would she stay with Rosie if she had another choice?" ("Entertainment Tonight," Dec. 21, 2006)
Arianna Huffington is "a dog." (Twitter, April 6, 2015)

No callous indifference to the feelings of others there. But thanks to Todd for letting me know my fixation on Trump (who's making amateur diagnoses now?) is a bit odd.

[Todd]

But thanks to Todd for letting me know my fixation on Trump (who's making amateur diagnoses now?) is a bit odd.

You're welcome.

[Gurn Blanston]

Why not just say that Trump is a douchenozzle?

That's what I say. With no modifiers or other addenda.  0:)

[(poco) Sforzando]

But I will ask him about your contention.

I can't wait. But meanwhile, if you Google "Donald Trump sociopath," you will see any number of articles expressing the same position.

[Todd]

But meanwhile, if you Google "Donald Trump sociopath," you will see any number of articles expressing the same position.

Googling "cute kittens" brings up many pictures of cute kittens.

[(poco) Sforzando]

Googling "cute kittens" brings up many pictures of cute kittens.

How snide we are. But it does not erase the fact that (whether clinically exact or no), there are personality traits in Trump that accord with numerous people's concept of what a sociopath may be.

[Todd]

But it does not erase the fact that (whether clinically exact or no), there are personality traits in Trump that accord with numerous people's concept of what a sociopath may be.

That is not a fact.

[Ken B]

How snide we are. But it does not erase the fact that (whether clinically exact or no), there are personality traits in Trump that accord with numerous people's concept of what a sociopath may be.

What a sneaky retreat! First he is one, this claimed as a matter of fact. Now it's that there are traits. As there are in everyone.

Google your opinion to see it's shared? Ironic, in a debate where one of the threads is about the tendency of some people to try to gussy up their attitudes with foolish claims of scientific solidity!

[(poco) Sforzando]

What a sneaky retreat! First he is one, this claimed as a matter of fact. Now it's that there are traits. As there are in everyone.

Google your opinion to see it's shared? Ironic, in a debate where one of the threads is about the tendency of some people to try to gussy up their attitudes with foolish claims of scientific solidity!

All right, you've had your fun. Let it go.