Countdown to Extinction: The 2016 Presidential Election

[Ken B]

What I am opposed to is any barrier, hurdle, or bureaucratic irritant which makes it harder for people who have the right to vote, to vote.
First you mention whether the Constitution has a say on the issue of more people voting being a good thing - well, of course, the people of that time thought that only wealthy, well-educated, land-owning white males should vote. We don't believe that anymore. So, yes, you're right, of course the Constitution is irrelevant.

But this Tammany Hall argument is far-fetched. 2015 is not the same as 1885. Yeah, we may still have the occasional (or frequent!) crook, and we may have a rigged system of gerrymandered districts where no incumbent is unsafe, but innumerable things are different about the political atmosphere, the nature of the voting public, and the culture as a whole.

I think the philosophical difference at the core is, I think a "turn out machine" that offers a bus ride and a free lunch is good if it helps people to vote when they otherwise would be prevented from doing so only by inconveniences/impracticalities, whereas you assume that these people are political ignorami who are being exploited and who do not, in fact, deserve the right to vote.

"you assume that these people are political ignorami who...do not ... deserve the right to vote."

See? That's what I mean by reading impairment. I said no such thing, nor anything which implies it. And I have stated that explicitly already.

But you are suggesting that we incur the cost of a national holiday, yet another day in November, just to further the (to me silly) goal of getting more idiots to vote.
(FWIW I *already* 'get' , that is must take, election day off, because I work for a company that has that in their contract with the union. )

"First you mention whether the Constitution has a say on the issue of more people voting being a good thing ..."
See? That's what I mean by reading impairment. Todd tossed the constitution into this, not I. Go back, read the comments in order. I noted the constitution is irrelevant to the point, pace Todd.

[Ken B]

More rubbish.  The implication of what you wrote is absolutely clear: you fear people you deem to have "ill-considered" opinions voting.  You clearly think you are in a position to know just how many people have such opinions, just how gullible most people other than yourself are, why people hold their opinions (as if this even matters), and that you are capable of making such a judgment.

Your use of language (eg, "fetish"), your purposely misleading partial reference to the Constitution (four amendments do include voting specifically, and were expressly designed to expand the franchise, for instance), and your irrelevant mention of Tammany Hall (a classic red herring) are really quite feeble and don't mask the truth.  They do not persuade.

Voter ID laws may improve the legitimacy of the voting process.  Hand-wringing about "ill-considered" opinions of the unwashed masses and unfounded fears of get out the vote drives and other such activities, by way of contrast, are intrinsically anti-democratic.

In a democracy, people get to fight for their ideas.  Conservatives or libertarians or whatever you fancy yourself to be need to get in the mix and sell your ideas and persuade.  If modern conservative/libertarian/whatever views don't win, so be it.

The reason I don't talk to Todd is that he cannot debate, or even disagree, without impugning motives. It is perfectly clear that is what he is doing in this quote.

[Brian]

"First you mention whether the Constitution has a say on the issue of more people voting being a good thing ..."
See? That's what I mean by reading impairment. Todd tossed the constitution into this, not I. Go back, read the comments in order. I noted the constitution is irrelevant to the point, pace Todd.

Your accusations re: reading impairment are hypocritical here.

So, yes, you're right, of course the Constitution is irrelevant.

The rest of your post is at least as cognitive-dissonant and silly, and it's clear that arguing with you is a waste of time, but before I depart, one more thing:

yet another day in November

If we were to completely revamp the election process, holid-ize Election Day, institute other reforms, etc., that would likely require a constitutional amendment. And, while you're in there, might as well move Election Day to a month where nothing else is happening, like August. Or would August not suit you because it makes it easier for liberal college students to vote in their hometowns?

[mc ukrneal]

And, while you're in there, might as well move Election Day to a month where nothing else is happening, like August.

Answer 1: Horrors! You mean I'll have to disrupt my holiday! Shivers...
Answer 2: Us Gentleman Farmers won't take kindly to that Mister, which is why we chose a date after the harvests in the first place...

[Ken B]

Your accusations re: reading impairment are hypocritical here.
The rest of your post is at least as cognitive-dissonant and silly, and it's clear that arguing with you is a waste of time, but before I depart, one more thing:If we were to completely revamp the election process, holid-ize Election Day, institute other reforms, etc., that would likely require a constitutional amendment. And, while you're in there, might as well move Election Day to a month where nothing else is happening, like August. Or would August not suit you because it makes it easier for liberal college students to vote in their hometowns?

Brian, you really should learn to answer what people say, not what you wish they said.  It seems you cannot even imagine that *I am not proposing making any fucking changes at all*.

In any case you have rebutted nothing of what I said, nor admitted you were wrong to claim I was saying people don't deserve the right to vote. You misread, you make accusations, you call names.

[Brian]

...wow, seriously? 

Answer 1: Horrors! You mean I'll have to disrupt my holiday! Shivers...
Answer 2: Us Gentleman Farmers won't take kindly to that Mister, which is why we chose a date after the harvests in the first place...

I was born in August so as a kid I was always grumpy that we didn't get a holiday and all the other months did.

[mc ukrneal]

...wow, seriously? 

I was born in August so as a kid I was always grumpy that we didn't get a holiday and all the other months did.

Move to France. They get all of August as a holiday!

[Brian]

Move to France. They get all of August as a holiday!

I'd love to! Any French people reading this looking to hire a guy who doesn't speak French?

[Todd]

The reason I don't talk to Todd is that he cannot debate, or even disagree, without impugning motives. It is perfectly clear that is what he is doing in this quote.

Yet you quoted my post and referred to me by name.  This is similar to tactics used by my teenage daughter.  I'm not talking to her!  She did <insert outrage here>.  (Arms crossed, stern look.)

It seems you cannot even imagine that *I am not proposing making any fucking changes at all*.

Perhaps not, but your disdain for popular democracy is evident in what you write.  Actually advocating for restricting the franchise would be very hard to defend, so best to stick with the 'masses is dumb' shtick.

[Pat B]

Actually advocating for restricting the franchise would be very hard to defend...

On the contrary, it's very easy to defend, as the past several years have shown. All you have to do is assert that the restrictions are for "preventing fraud."

[Brian]

Perhaps not, but your disdain for popular democracy is evident in what you write.  Actually advocating for restricting the franchise would be very hard to defend, so best to stick with the 'masses is dumb' shtick.

The last few pages are littered with this tactic. It's very clear what opinions Ken held, but he couldn't actually say them because if he did, we'd jump all over him. So instead he couched them in carefully evasive language so that he could deny thinking what he really thinks.

[Sammy]

I thought I was registered as an independent but found out last year that I'm actually a libertarian.  What the hell happened to Rand Paul?  I guess Trump ate him up.

Let's see what we have here.  We had 8 years of pathetic leadership with Bush and the ever-dysfunctional Congress; that was followed by another 8 years of crap.  I'm very tired of professional politicians, their clones and politically correct garbage.  I'll be voting for a person with little to no political history.  Maybe Trump or Carson, maybe not.  One thing about Trump - he's very entertaining.  If the best we can expect  from our politicians is boring incompetence, I'd rather go with incompetence that's entertaining and interesting.

 

[Brian]

If the best we can expect  from our politicians is boring incompetence, I'd rather go with incompetence that's entertaining and interesting.

Like ?

[Sammy]

Like ?

That guy's not even an American.  I think I remember something about an affair he was having, but know nothing about him beyond that.

[Jo498]

That guy's not even an American.  I think I remember something about an affair he was having, but know nothing about him beyond that.

You are better off that way. To witness that the stunts this guy pulled for more than 20 were possible in a "western democracy" (and the 4th important country in Europe in terms of population and economic power) may lead to severe depression regarding all kinds of controls one thought would or should be in place...

(Of course you guys might be able to "trump" him...)

[Karl Henning]

I thought I was registered as an independent but found out last year that I'm actually a libertarian.  What the hell happened to Rand Paul?  I guess Trump ate him up.

Let's see what we have here.  We had 8 years of pathetic leadership with Bush and the ever-dysfunctional Congress; that was followed by another 8 years of crap.  I'm very tired of professional politicians, their clones and politically correct garbage.  I'll be voting for a person with little to no political history.  Maybe Trump or Carson, maybe not.  One thing about Trump - he's very entertaining.  If the best we can expect  from our politicians is boring incompetence, I'd rather go with incompetence that's entertaining and interesting.

Welcome back, dude!

Rand Paul . . . in that twilight realm of [ pretty sure he hasn't dropped out, yet ] and [ so where the blazes is he, then? ]

You've something of a point . . . Trump will make the White House so interesting, we'll get bored with interesting!

[Jo498]

Wasn't their that old Chinese malediction: May you live in interesting times! ...?

[Pat B]

Trump will make the White House so interesting, we'll get bored with interesting!

Well played.

[drogulus]

   Why not have a "disenfranchisement lottery"? Everyone has their name put on the list, we decide how many to remove to "prevent fraud" and a computer randomly chooses the honorary fraudsters.

   Advantage: No individual or party interest is hurt except for one cycle the honorees, and no one wastes time pretending to look for something that's not there.

[Karl Henning]

Jim Webb Withdraws From 2016 Democratic Nomination Fight to Consider Independent Bid.

Um, really?