Countdown to Extinction: The 2016 Presidential Election

[Todd]

but if someone says that the voters of Clark County don't matter because they're not in Oregon, look out!

Voters in Clark County, Washington matter in American politics, national, state, and regional.  People in Australia literally don't matter at all in American politics - nor should they.  I would have thought that self-evident.  How could Australian people matter at all in American politics?  It's as though you are acting dense on purpose.

I would very much appreciate your ''theory'' on democracy.

[Madiel]

Voters in Clark County, Washington matter in American politics, national, state, and regional. 

They matter in Washington state politics. To say that they matter in OREGON state politics, or Multnomah County politics, which appears to be what you're arguing, is quite illogical. If you're going to exclude Canadians from American politics for living outside the boundary, then the only logical thing is to exclude Clark County, Washington residents from Oregon and Multnomah politics on the same basis.

To say they matter in "American state politics" without identifying which state is just woolly thinking. Do they matter in Massachusetts state politics? Nevada state politics? Florida state politics? Nope.

How could people not in Portland matter in Portland politics? People in Washington literally don't matter at all in Oregon politics - nor should they. I would have thought that self-evident.

[Gurn Blanston]

321391290
This huffie and puffie stuff is not me nor I suspect the nature of the great majority of people on this earth. This comes from you and please do not try to associate it with mankind. All of us like our ego and other organs to squirt. We all enjoy the pleasure money provides. But I believe our shared human nature alerts us that while pursing these pleasures hurting others, including bulling, is wrong. I must assume yours does too even though we both know we have prisons full of those who ignored that voice.
I can remember a society light years ago when America was shocked (or pretended to be) by Goldwater's "extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice" statement. American civil discourse ended two decades ago when the Pharisee style 'Christian" bullying poison start from the Right. It is actually a shame since there is occasional merit to some positions expressed by Trump along with the I want to be Nero stuff.

Well, good luck with that. If you think you don't share a common human trait you are sadly mistaken. We may well be civilized to the point of having it under control, usually, but that's about the best that can be said.

You seem to be laboring under the misapprehension that I have some favor or sympathy for Trump, or indeed, for any of the so-called modern conservatives. If this is the case, you are wrong wrong wrong. I remember Goldwater quite well, and Nixon too for that matter. The upheaval in the Republican Party then is barely comparable to what it is now.

There was a day when I voted for Republicans if they were worthy, but that party left me far behind when they moved Right to the point of unrecognizability. By their lights, I am a far Leftie these days. I am what we called a Centrist back in the days when one could keep track.

[Todd]

They matter in Washington state politics. To say that they matter in OREGON state politics, or Multnomah County politics, which appears to be what you're arguing, is quite illogical.

I live in Washington County, Oregon.  Clark County residents do matter to citizens of Washington County.  They oppose Metro's attempted expansion of power across state lines, county lines, and city lines.  You do understand that Metro is unique, even in the US, in that it transcends traditional local jurisdictional boundaries?  Oh, wait, of course you don't, because Metro is literally the only organization of its type on earth.  My bad.  Your ignorance is understandable.

[Madiel]

I live in Washington County, Oregon.  Clark County residents do matter to citizens of Washington County.

Oh brother. The question wasn't whether they matter to their fellow-citizens. You've miraculously shifted form legal jurisdiction do-I-get-a-vote mattering to a touchy feely notion.

[Todd]

People in Washington literally don't matter at all in Oregon politics - nor should they. I would have thought that self-evident.

Here you are just plain wrong, using basic facts on the ground.  But if you insist on expanding your original posts, do try to use basic, salient facts.  Clark County, Washington voters did kill dead an expansion of light rail, which has implications for Oregon, Washington, and the United States federal government.  I know you didn't know that, but you insist that you did.  At least get your basic facts right before posting, sheesh.  You literally don't have a clue what you are writing.

[Madiel]

Here you are just plain wrong, using basic facts on the ground.  But if you insist on expanding your original posts, do try to use basic, salient facts.  Clark County, Washington voters did kill dead an expansion of light rail, which has implications for Oregon, Washington, and the United States federal government.  I know you didn't know that, but you insist that you did.  At least get your basic facts right before posting, sheesh.  You literally don't have a clue what you are writing.

I'm not running my own argument, I'm parodying yours.

You cannot get your logic consistent. You want to exclude people from countries other than America, on the basis that they don't "matter", but the simple fact is that despite your attempt to live in an American bubble people from other countries are perfectly capable of making decisions that impact America. Looked what happened when Canada talked about border controls. Americans flipped out.

You cannot have it both ways, and you're trying very hard to have it both ways. You're trying to exclude those you want to exclude, and include those you want to include, and you're running opposite arguments depending on which objective you're currently aiming for.

People living in Washington State don't live inside the boundaries of the Metro government. That's a fact. If how America organises its governance is no business of people in Canada or anywhere else outside the USA, then how Oregon decides to organise governance within Oregon is none of Washington State's business.

I don't get to vote in elections for places not 15 minutes drive away from me, and there's not even a river crossing, just a little ridge that marks the watershed boundary. My friends on the other side of the boundary don't get to vote here. Democracy does not consist of getting to vote for anywhere that you're interested in!

[Pat B]

How it looks here in Oregon is that Democrats are incapable of managing anything properly.

I get that. I'm not very keen on single-party dominance regardless of which party it is.

[Johnll]

My question too. Cruz is a weapon grade shit-weasel, he would win any "who is the most f****-up" question you cared to pose, and yet he was left off the list. Curious omission. 

Luck is not required. This is you in your own words.

[Todd]

You want to exclude people from countries other than America, on the basis that they don't "matter"

No, you don't get it.  Foreign opinions do not really matter in US elections, especially to the electorate.  Nor should they.  I'm sure there are a few sensitive lefty or quasi-lefty types who worry what foreigners think - be they sensitive Canadians or outright xenophobic Aussies - but Clark County, Washington voters, and some other local voters in the US in specific counties or cities, have greater impact stateside than the opinion of entire nations overseas.  That's the way it should be.  I'm not quite sure why it is hard for non-Americans to get that.  Of course I expect Australian politicians to lick American boots and welcome American military bases.  Australia is small and weak, America is powerful.  That's the way of the world.  Which nation do you think will win in a border dispute between the US and Canada, or more important, in an Arctic boundary dispute between the US and Canada?  Canada is America's bitch, and if they think otherwise, one naval battle group will settle the dispute.  You get that, right?

I get it.  You simply will not admit that you are fundamentally ignorant of local US politics.  You do not understand, or choose to present that you do not understand, that something like a multi-billion dollar light rail deal dispute between Washington State and Oregon has greater domestic implications (and perhaps US-Swedish implications, since the light rail manufacturer is Swedish) than anything to do with Australia, a northern Australian military base perhaps excluded, could ever have.  Clark County voters are much more important to my life than all of Australia.  Voters in Illinois are far more important to my life than all of India.  China and Russia excepted, the rest of the world is basically close to irrelevant come ballot time, soothing words not withstanding.

[Madiel]

No, you don't get it.  Foreign opinions do not really matter in US elections, especially to the electorate.  Nor should they.  I'm sure there are a few sensitive lefty or quasi-lefty types who worry what foreigners think - be they sensitive Canadians or outright xenophobic Aussies - but Clark County, Washington voters, and some other local voters in the US in specific counties or cities, have greater impact stateside than the opinion of entire nations overseas.  That's the way it should be.  I'm not quite sure why it is hard for non-Americans to get that.  Of course I expect Australian politicians to lick American boots and welcome American military bases.  Australia is small and weak, America is powerful.  That's the way of the world.  Which nation do you think will win in a border dispute between the US and Canada, or more important, in an Arctic boundary dispute between the US and Canada?  Canada is America's bitch, and if they think otherwise, one naval battle group will settle the dispute.  You get that, right?

I get it.  You simply will not admit that you are fundamentally ignorant of local US politics.  You do not understand, or choose to present that you do not understand, that something like a multi-billion dollar light rail deal dispute between Washington State and Oregon has greater domestic implications (and perhaps US-Swedish implications, since the light rail manufacturer is Swedish) than anything to do with Australia, a northern Australian military base perhaps excluded, could ever have.  Clark County voters are much more important to my life than all of Australia.  Voters in Illinois are far more important to my life than all of India.  China and Russia excepted, the rest of the world is basically close to irrelevant come ballot time, soothing words not withstanding.

I understand the local politics just fine. But you still don't grasp that democracy does not consist of I'm interested so I get a vote.

And you trumpet the glories of American power in the most egregious fashion, while not grasping the power imbalance that exists between the Oregon and Washington sides of the river. Again, you completely fail to grasp how you are arguing against yourself at every turn.

The reasons that Canadians and Australians don't get to vote in American elections are exactly the same reasons why people in Clark County don't get to vote for governmental authorities in Oregon. It has precisely nothing to do with how much you like your neighbours or degree of interest. It's lines on a map. Democracy does not mean 'I care so I ought to get a vote'.

And it sure as hell doesn't mean "they're important so they get a vote"!!!

[Todd]

But you still don't grasp that democracy does not consist of I'm interested so I get a vote.

The reasons that Canadians and Australians don't get to vote in American elections are exactly the same reasons why people in Clark County don't get to vote for governmental authorities in Oregon.

Looks like you forgot to get your facts straight.  I will use small words: Clark County killed light rail north.  It is dead.  Clark County voters have a voice. 

Get it now?  Portland lefties, with their anti-democratic impulses, keep pushing for it.  They keep losing.  Democracy works in the US.  It is Portland lefties who are frustrated at their inability to move "forward".  I laugh at their failures.  Yay for democracy!

And American power over European nations and their offshoots is something to be celebrated without restraint.

[Madiel]

Looks like you forgot to get your facts straight.  I will use small words: Clark County killed light rail north.  It is dead.  Clark County voters have a voice. 

Get it now?  Portland lefties, with their anti-democratic impulses, keep pushing for it.  They keep losing.  Democracy works in the US.  It is Portland lefties who are frustrated at their inability to move "forward".  I laugh at their failures.  Yay for democracy!

Get my facts straight? You simply seem to have no idea about the difference voting in an election and voting on something else. Your response to "people in Clark County don't get to vote for governmental authorities in Oregon" is to reply with "Clark County killed light rail north". How does that disprove what I said? It doesn't. Not in the slightest.


So let's get this straight: you're mad that Metro is 'undemocratic' because it doesn't include Clark County voters, yet happy that Clark County voters can defeat light rail... which they can do precisely because they're in an area where Metro has no jurisdiction.

Do you have any idea how bizarre it is to simultaneously complain about the boundary of a jurisdiction as 'undemocratic', when it's exactly the same boundary that enables Clark County voters to say no? If Clark County was within Metro's jurisdiction, then Metro could make decisions for Clark County.

You can't seriously can't have it both ways. You can't have Clark County voters being able to vote in Metro elections unless Metro has power over Clark County. It doesn't though. There's nothing 'undemocratic' about Clark County being unable to vote in Metro elections.... because as you yourself now acknowledge, Clark County's separate power to vote on matters independently of Metro is democracy in action.

And American power over European nations and their offshoots is something to be celebrated without restraint.

WTF.

Okay, that's it. You go on the ignore list. Until this thread I had no idea you were crazy, but you clearly are. And I have no desire to communicate with someone who repeatedly shows such utter contempt for anyone who doesn't live in the good ol' US of A. Apart from Beethoven, apparently.

[Todd]

Do you have any idea how bizarre it is to simultaneously complain about the boundary of a jurisdiction as 'undemocratic', when it's exactly the same boundary that enables Clark County voters to say no? If Clark County was within Metro's jurisdiction, then Metro could make decisions for Clark County.

Please point out where I stated that Metro has jurisdiction over Clark County.  Metro has attempted to impose its political will on Clark County.  It has failed.  This failure should be celebrated.  It is really quite simple.  This is a perfect example of lefties in one jurisdiction attempting to intimidate and/or pressure another jurisdiction to act a certain way, smug in their certainty they will succeed, and indignant in their deserved failure.

(It looks like you keep changing your post.  Come on now, one answer at a time.)

WTF.

Okay, that's it. You go on the ignore list. Until this thread I had no idea you were crazy, but you clearly are.

* chortle *

[Madiel]

ADDENDUM: I find it scarcely credible that the same man who expresses hope in the paralysis of the United States Government wants to celebrate how the United States could squash other countries. There's some serious inner conflict right there.

[Todd]

ADDENDUM: I find it scarcely credible that the same man who expresses hope in the paralysis of the United States Government wants to celebrate how the United States could squash other countries. There's some serious inner conflict right there.

Wait, I'm on the ignore list, but not yet.  A little bit of Augustine in ya?

I believe I've made it clear that domestic political inefficiency is one goal, and a reduction in international involvement, specifically wars, is another.  Inefficient domestic rule and reasonably efficient or at least less inefficient foreign and military policy overseas are not at all incompatible.  The US has lost too many young men to European wars to trust any European leaders ever again.  Again, this is pretty simple stuff.

[Karl Henning]

The road to extinction:

http://www.youtube.com/v/PuTe_sAI-UQ

[Gurn Blanston]

Luck is not required. This is you in your own words.

I certainly don't withdraw that. He is.

[Florestan]

And American power over European nations and their offshoots is something to be celebrated without restraint.

I don´t know if celebrated without restraint is the best way to put it, but I´d certainly rather live under American hegemony than Russian (or Chinese).

The US has lost too many young men to European wars to trust any European leaders ever again. 

Do you really want to go that route? Then how about an All Native American Tribes Conference issueing a declaration stating that they have lost too many young men to USA wars against them to trust any American leaders ever again? 

[Karl Henning]

Kudos to Geo. Will for coining the term Vichy Republicans . . . .