Countdown to Extinction: The 2016 Presidential Election

[Gurn Blanston]

I find it extremely amusing that when the outcome of the vote is in line with one´s own ideas democracy is a good and functional thing (Obama´s getting elected), but when the outcome of the vote is not in line with one´s own ideas (Trump´s getting nominated and perhaps even elected) then suddenly democracy becomes flawed and dysfunctional. And furthermore, voters who think and vote like one does are smart and responsible while voters who do not think (at all, in some cases) and vote like one does are irresponsible morons. (In the same vein I remember the shameful and dictatorial blackmail to which EU subjected Austria when the Freedom Party won the elections).

Now, either one accepts as sane and sound and beneficial the basic premise of democracy - ie, an irresponsible, uninformed, uneducated guy´s vote has the same weight and importance as the vote of a responsible, informed, educated guy´s vote (and in practice much more, because the former category vastly outnumbers the latter, irrespective of ideologies) - or one doesn´t. I know I don´t, but you gentlemen seem to do, so why then the surprise and sadness?

As an aside, we are often reminded that Hitler came to power through democratic elections and this fact should make us eternally apprehensive about the extreme right --- but it never crosses the mind of those who keep repeating it that it is also an argument for being eternally apprehensive about democracy itself. 

As always, you missed my point entirely. I hope you aren't one of the ones in the 'non-satire- group'.    I don't give a shit who agrees with me and who doesn't, honestly. Stupid is stupid, even when I make a stupid choice, usually half the country agrees with me. So what does that say?

However, if I read an article that said Obama smuggled back 200 Cubans in Air Force 1, I would like to think I would have been at least a little skeptical, yet I know people who would buy right into it. THEY are the ones who shouldn't be reproducing. See, it has nothing to do with Obama or Trump or Cruz or any of them. Or even agreeing with me.       (BTW, and just as an aside, you, nor anyone else, even knows what my choice for president would be. So you can't make any conclusions about what I think or say based on what you know, since you don't know anything).

[Karl Henning]

Knowing what one does not know: priceless.

[Florestan]

THEY are the ones who shouldn't be reproducing.

Do you really mean it or is it just sarcastical rhetoric?

[The new erato]

Would you agree that they be settled by vote, ie by referendum?

No. We have our regular election systems and I think settling evry issue by referendum would make it impossible to run a country. But the regular elections should be cast without the heavy preference given to candidates with money, manipulation by gerrymandering, by making people preregister or in other ways making it difficult to cast a vote for certain groups, etc, etc, etc. 

[drogulus]

I find it extremely amusing that when the outcome of the vote is in line with one´s own ideas democracy is a good and functional thing (Obama´s getting elected), but when the outcome of the vote is not in line with one´s own ideas (Trump´s getting nominated and perhaps even elected) then suddenly democracy becomes flawed and dysfunctional.

     We knew about the flaws before Trump. Churchill had it right that democracy is the least worst. Once again, ideas of perfection prevent you from seeing how the good is derived. It's mostly not a contest between Thomas Jefferson and Mr. Hilter.

     Did human beings have a "right to exist" before existing? What about ideas of the good, do they have to be good before they get to be ideas, or does life itself teach us what the good ideas are, and help us get better ones?

[Florestan]

No. We have our regular election systems and I think settling evry issue by referendum would make it impossible to run a country.

I did not write "every issue" but you did write "really important stuff". In your opinion do the refugee crisis and the islamic terrorist menace qualify as really important stuff?

On the other hand, referenda and regular elections are not mutually exclusive; referenda (locval, cantonal or national) are held in Switzerland on a regular basis and on a wide variety of issues, despite the fact that they too have their regular election system.

[The new erato]

I did not write "every issue" but you did write "really important stuff". In your opinion do the refugee crisis and the islamic terrorist menace qualify as really important stuff?

On the other hand, referenda and regular elections are not mutually exclusive; referenda (locval, cantonal or national) are held in Switzerland on a regular basis and on a wide variety of issues, despite the fact that they too have their regular election system.

No, and yes I know. I wouldn't want the Swiss system because I think the Norwegian system works reasonably well.

[Florestan]

No

Just to be sure I understood you all right: in your opinion, the refugee crisis and the islamic terrorist menace are not really important problems. Is this correct?

[Florestan]

Churchill had it right that democracy is the least worst.

Yep. No argument here.

[Madiel]

I find it extremely amusing that when the outcome of the vote is in line with one´s own ideas democracy is a good and functional thing (Obama´s getting elected), but when the outcome of the vote is not in line with one´s own ideas (Trump´s getting nominated and perhaps even elected) then suddenly democracy becomes flawed and dysfunctional. And furthermore, voters who think and vote like one does are smart and responsible while voters who do not think (at all, in some cases) and vote like one does are irresponsible morons. (In the same vein I remember the shameful and dictatorial blackmail to which EU subjected Austria when the Freedom Party won the elections).

Now, either one accepts as sane and sound and beneficial the basic premise of democracy - ie, an irresponsible, uninformed, uneducated guy´s vote has the same weight and importance as the vote of a responsible, informed, educated guy´s vote (and in practice much more, because the former category vastly outnumbers the latter, irrespective of ideologies) - or one doesn´t. I know I don´t, but you gentlemen seem to do, so why then the surprise and sadness?

As an aside, we are often reminded that Hitler came to power through democratic elections and this fact should make us eternally apprehensive about the extreme right --- but it never crosses the mind of those who keep repeating it that it is also an argument for being eternally apprehensive about democracy itself. 

You seem to be making an enormous number of assumptions about my views that don't seem to be based on anything I can recall ever saying on this forum. I despair at stupidity even when it occurs on my part of the political spectrum.

And as a swinging voter (within the Australian political spectrum), I keep hoping to be persuaded by cogent argument, and it happens far too rarely. Politics for most people seems to be a mindless team sport. I don't even like my team sport mindless.

[Gurn Blanston]

Do you really mean it or is it just sarcastical rhetoric?

Sarcastic rhetoric. I'm not big on eugenics... I'm also not big on people being voluntarily ignorant. Pleasure-seeking hedonists in school grow into people who believe their President would smuggle aliens into the country on his plane, while simultaneously praying towards Mecca. It may have always and everywhere been so, but that doesn't make it any easier to take when it is in YOUR country.

[Florestan]

You seem to be making an enormous number of assumptions about my views that don't seem to be based on anything I can recall ever saying on this forum.

You wrote: "Presumably these people are qualified to vote. " --- which I took it to express frustration about the fact that such extremely stupid people have a say in the voting process. If I misunderstood you, I apologize.

[Madiel]

You wrote: "Presumably these people are qualified to vote. " --- which I took it to express frustration about the fact that such extremely stupid people have a say in the voting process. If I misunderstood you, I apologize.

No, you understood that part just fine. It's all the assumptions you made about how I would be in favour of extremely stupid people so long as they voted the same way as me that I object to.

[Florestan]

Sarcastic rhetoric. I'm not big on eugenics... I'm also not big on people being voluntarily ignorant. Pleasure-seeking hedonists in school grow into people who believe their President would smuggle aliens into the country on his plane, while simultaneously praying towards Mecca. It may have always and everywhere been so, but that doesn't make it any easier to take when it is in YOUR country.

There is a TV show in Romania during which people in the streets are asked all kind of questions, such as "Who wrote the Bible?", "Did you know that Adam and Eve were Romanians?", "What year are we living in?", "What is the last letter of the alphabet?", "What do we celebrate on Easter?" or "What country / continent are we living in?". They admittedly show only the stupid, absurd or ridiculous answers but it is enough to make one bang his head against the wall in despair. 

[Todd]

Obama smuggled back 200 Cubans in Air Force 1

Why isn't this getting more coverage?

[Florestan]

No, you understood that part just fine. It's all the assumptions you made about how I would be in favour of extremely stupid people so long as they voted the same way as me that I object to.

I see. Well, I apologize for that, then.

I despair at stupidity even when it occurs on my part of the political spectrum.

And as a swinging voter (within the Australian political spectrum), I keep hoping to be persuaded by cogent argument, and it happens far too rarely. Politics for most people seems to be a mindless team sport. I don't even like my team sport mindless.

I agree with all of the above.

[Gurn Blanston]

Why isn't this getting more coverage?

The Onion broke the story. This whole tangent of the thread is due to the fact that Snopes actually had to print an explanation that it was satire, not reality. At least, that's what they're saying. Of course, Snopes is run by the Illuminati... 

[Todd]

The Onion broke the story.

I haven't been able to keep up with The Onion this cycle.  Lately, I've been too caught up in important stories regarding candidates' spouses.  Melania Trump is hot.  Vote Trump.

[Karl Henning]

Make America Hot Again!

[Gurn Blanston]

I haven't been able to keep up with The Onion this cycle.  Lately, I've been too caught up in important stories regarding candidates' spouses.  Melania Trump is hot.  Vote Trump.

Well, you are right about that, his hands must be bigger than we thought!!   0:)