Wagner ~ The Flying Dutchman DVD & CD recommendations

[Solitary Wanderer]

I'm going to start at Wagners fourth music drama/opera when I've finished the Ring so I'm looking for recommendations in both DVD & CD formats.

At the moment I'm looking at these two:





Regarding the DVD's; I'm looking for interpretations that are true to Wagners original intent NOT modern takes. I will expolre those at a latter stage.

Thanks

[uffeviking]

For the CD there is none better than the Sinopoli. A dream cast with Bernd Weikl at his second best. - His first best is his Hans Sachs! - 

[Lethevich]

Regarding the DVD's; I'm looking for interpretations that are true to Wagners original intent NOT modern takes. I will expolre those at a latter stage.

A warning: the DVD you link would be considered a "modern take" by most standards.

[Solitary Wanderer]

A warning: the DVD you link would be considered a "modern take" by most standards.

Any suggestions for an alternative? 

[PSmith08]

If you are looking for productions that are true to Richard Wagner's intent, run - do not walk - away from Harry Kupfer's Holländer. In fact, figure that any Kupfer production is pretty much Regietheater at its second-best (Chéreau being a better and more intelligent director). That is, Wagner's original intent is not to be found in these productions. So, if you want great modern theater, Kupfer is a solid choice. If you want Richard Wagner, shun Kupfer like the plague.

As to the CD, I will respectfully disagree with Lis and say that Joseph Keilberth's 1955 Bayreuth Holländer is nonpareil. Hermann Uhde's Holländer is second-to-none. He really captures the deep torment of that character in a very moving way that no-one (save maybe Hans Hotter for Krauss in 1944) has since managed to affect. In my humble estimation, as formidable as Weikl is in this role, he lacks the necessary anguish that makes "Ihr Welten, endet euren Lauf! Ew'ge Vernichtung, nimm mich auf!" (and that whole preceding monologue - a grim introduction) seem believable. Uhde, on the other hand, sings whole final part of the monologue (practically begging for the end of the world) with conviction - and above all, believability. Astrid Varnay's Senta is beyond reproach. At this point, she was one of the leading Wagnerian sopranos at Bayreuth - singing in Der Ring for Keilberth that year. Ludwig Weber and Rudolf Lustig are also very competent singers. Uhde, though, shines - not to be overly florid - like a piece of dark steel over the rest. Keilberth is, as usual, a brilliant conductor. This is the perfect storm for Holländer recordings as far as I am concerned. The cast and orchestral contributions are wonderful, but - even were they far below par - Uhde's Holländer makes this a first choice. Testament just put it back out in very nice stereo. You get a fairly natural dose of that Bayreuth magic, in addition to a performance that is magical in its own way. I'll put it like this Hermann Uhde is the Holländer.

Thomas Stewart isn't far behind, for Karl Böhm on the Green Hill in 1971, but I don't care for Harald Ek's occasionally nasty-sounding Steuermann. Josef Traxel's performance in the same part for Keilberth is, though, lyrical and lovely. "Mit Gewitter und Sturm" should not sound like "Ihrem Ende eilem sie zu." I think, though, that Ek eventually figured that out - mid-performance - and softened his tone a bit. There is, too, the matter of Gwyneth Jones' Senta. I am not a Dame Gwyneth fan, as a rule (stemming largely from Boulez' Götterdämmerung), and she provides no cogent case for an exception. She's demented, but let's be fair, there's more to Senta than being appropriately unhinged. I will note, at the risk of being inappropriate, that the Norwegian sailors' chorus ("Steuermann, laß die Wacht") sounds like something done at the 1934 Party Congress. There is a little more steel and bite in there than I really like for this part. Karl Ridderbusch is Daland. Hermin Esser is Erik. I like Ridderbusch already, if he is not quite as tiefe as I'd like. Esser doesn't give me a reason not to like him.

Those two are my favorite recordings, with Klemperer, Levine and Sinopoli (more or less tied), and Solti falling in behind in that order. In case you haven't guessed, I like Holländer the most of the early Wagner works.

Any suggestions for an alternative? 

There isn't one. Nelsson's Bayreuth set (coming out on CD soon-ish, and I'll be in line for it) and another one, done with Segerstam (who is, in my experience, hit-and-miss) seem to be the only two DVD options. Sorry. Holländer is underrated as is.

[Lethevich]

Any suggestions for an alternative? 

As PSmith08 mentioned, there doesnt seem to be one atm. It's a decent DVD IMO - much better than nothing. I lean towards 'normal' looking performances, but don't really mind something updated if I have to (or want to add to existing recordings). The staging itself looks pretty normal for a modern production (no extremes like minimal white sets and neon lights ), but the concept would require you to be familiar with the synopsis and read through the DVD's booklet. Nothing horribly intrusive, though - it may be worth looking up some reviews.

[Que]

Klemperer, definitely Klemperer.
But I haven't heard the Keilberth on Testament that PSmith08 mentions, I wholeheartedly share the admiration for Hermann Uhde BTW!

I absolutely don't care for Levine, Sinopoli (Placido Domingo singing Wagner is - literally - a travesty...) or Solti. Nelsson is OK.



Q

[david johnson]

 gasp !! to pick anything other than Franz Konwitschny/Berlin Staatskapelle Orchestra on emi is a mortal sin, damning one's ears to an afterlife of muzak!!!!! 

it really is a great one.

dj

[Solitary Wanderer]

What about this Backman one recorded at the Finnish castle?

[Solitary Wanderer]

If you are looking for productions that are true to Richard Wagner's intent, run - do not walk - away from Harry Kupfer's Holländer. In fact, figure that any Kupfer production is pretty much Regietheater at its second-best (Chéreau being a better and more intelligent director). That is, Wagner's original intent is not to be found in these productions. So, if you want great modern theater, Kupfer is a solid choice. If you want Richard Wagner, shun Kupfer like the plague.

Really? That bad huh?

There isn't one. Nelsson's Bayreuth set (coming out on CD soon-ish, and I'll be in line for it) and another one, done with Segerstam (who is, in my experience, hit-and-miss) seem to be the only two DVD options. Sorry. Holländer is underrated as is.

Okay thats the one I've posted above. Hmmm, dissappointing as I thought Dutchman would be well represented on DVD 

Maybe I'll the next one I get should be Lohengrin?

[PSmith08]

Really? That bad huh?

No, if we're talking about modern theater. Kupfer is interesting, if still second-best, but he has apparently no use for Richard Wagner's ideas. Kupfer's pretty sure he's decided what these stories "mean" and he's going to do his thing to the exclusion of Wagner's own notions of it all. If you're familiar with the music and Wagner's own ideas, Kupfer isn't bad, as you can translate and see the conversation taking place.

Meistersinger, though, has several very reasonable productions and several top-flight CD sets out there. I don't know Lohengrin that well, preferring his father's company.

[Solitary Wanderer]

No, if we're talking about modern theater. Kupfer is interesting, if still second-best, but he has apparently no use for Richard Wagner's ideas. Kupfer's pretty sure he's decided what these stories "mean" and he's going to do his thing to the exclusion of Wagner's own notions of it all. If you're familiar with the music and Wagner's own ideas, Kupfer isn't bad, as you can translate and see the conversation taking place.

Meistersinger, though, has several very reasonable productions and several top-flight CD sets out there. I don't know Lohengrin that well, preferring his father's company.

Well, the two Dutchman DVDs could be worth a look anyway.

I thought I'd tackle Mastersingers later starting with his first three 'mature' works

[marvinbrown]

No, if we're talking about modern theater. Kupfer is interesting, if still second-best, but he has apparently no use for Richard Wagner's ideas. Kupfer's pretty sure he's decided what these stories "mean" and he's going to do his thing to the exclusion of Wagner's own notions of it all. If you're familiar with the music and Wagner's own ideas, Kupfer isn't bad, as you can translate and see the conversation taking place.

Meistersinger, though, has several very reasonable productions and several top-flight CD sets out there. I don't know Lohengrin that well, preferring his father's company.

  Yes I have the Kupfer DVD of The Flying Dutchman and I must admit that it took me quite some time to appreciate Kupfer's take on this opera.  He certainly strayed away from Wagner's intention.  To this day I am left wondering what's "real" and what's delussional "Senta's delusions".

  marvin

[Anne]

PSmith08:
"As to the CD, I will respectfully disagree with Lis and say that Joseph Keilberth's 1955 Bayreuth Holländer is nonpareil."

I like the Keilberth 1955 Bayreuth Hollander also.

There is a good CD recording of Hollander on Naxos.  It has been out quite a while and has been praised on several other opera BB's.

[Tsaraslondon]

gasp !! to pick anything other than Franz Konwitschny/Berlin Staatskapelle Orchestra on emi is a mortal sin, damning one's ears to an afterlife of muzak!!!!! 

it really is a great one.

dj

If you can put up with Marianne Schech's matronly and unfocused Senta. Fischer-Dieskau is, as you might expect, an unusually intellectual and interesting Dutchman. And it does have the best Steersman on disc in Fritz Wunderlich. I did have it on LP, but haven't replaced it on CD, because of the inadequacy of Schech.

[PSmith08]

If you can put up with Marianne Schech's matronly and unfocused Senta. Fischer-Dieskau is, as you might expect, an unusually intellectual and interesting Dutchman. And it does have the best Steersman on disc in Fritz Wunderlich. I did have it on LP, but haven't replaced it on CD, because of the inadequacy of Schech.

Wunderlich was quite good (not only in Holländer, but in everything - though that's not news), but I'm weirdly partial to (other than Traxel) Paul Groves for James Levine.

[M forever]

Placido Domingo singing Wagner is - literally - a travesty...

Maybe. Or maybe not. I don't have much of an opinion about that subject, but I wanted to point out that there were quite a few Italian singers who sang in Bayreuth during Wagner's time (I know Domingo isn't Italian, but he is "at home" in that repertoire) just as Verdi actually preferred some German singers for performances of his operas. Apparently, both composers found the different basic approaches to singing brought by singers from both "schools" enrichening, contradicting some very hard set clichés about what is supposedly the "right" way to sing German or Italian opera. Beyond those simple clichés, there is a lot of interesting dynamic going on between German an Italian music traditions, as is evidenced by the many eminent Italian interpreters of German symphonic and opera repertoire, such as Toscanini, Giulini, Abbado, Chailly, Sinopoli, and maybe even Muti.

Franz Konwitschny/Berlin Staatskapelle Orchestra

Just wanted to point out here that the word "Kapelle" already means "orchestra". So "Staatskapelle Berlin" is enough.

[PSmith08]

Maybe. Or maybe not. I don't have much of an opinion about that subject, but I wanted to point out that there were quite a few Italian singers who sang in Bayreuth during Wagner's time (I know Domingo isn't Italian, but he is "at home" in that repertoire) just as Verdi actually preferred some German singers for performances of his operas. Apparently, both composers found the different basic approaches to singing brought by singers from both "schools" enrichening, contradicting some very hard set clichés about what is supposedly the "right" way to sing German or Italian opera. Beyond those simple clichés, there is a lot of interesting dynamic going on between German an Italian music traditions, as is evidenced by the many eminent Italian interpreters of German symphonic and opera repertoire, such as Toscanini, Giulini, Abbado, Chailly, Sinopoli, and maybe even Muti.

I am similarly indecisive about Domingo in Wagner. His Parsifal for Thielemann was not bad, which is to say pretty good. I'm not selling my Kubelík set with James King (or my Boulez set), but - aside from the dramatic dissonance of a nearly seventy-year-old man singing a young man - he handles the role very well. His Siegmund, with Sinopoli in Bayreuth (2000), was not bad either. On principle, I haven't heard the Pappano set (preferring the Runnicles release), but I can't imagine that it's not good. Still, I have to wonder if his voice is a bit light for the serious Wagnerian repertoire. James King, to me, is probably the Wagnerian tenor of "modernity" (not to sell Windgassen or Jerusalem short) - so I don't know about Domingo.

[Que]

Maybe. Or maybe not. I don't have much of an opinion about that subject, but I wanted to point out that there were quite a few Italian singers who sang in Bayreuth during Wagner's time (I know Domingo isn't Italian, but he is "at home" in that repertoire) just as Verdi actually preferred some German singers for performances of his operas. Apparently, both composers found the different basic approaches to singing brought by singers from both "schools" enrichening, contradicting some very hard set clichés about what is supposedly the "right" way to sing German or Italian opera. Beyond those simple clichés, there is a lot of interesting dynamic going on between German an Italian music traditions, as is evidenced by the many eminent Italian interpreters of German symphonic and opera repertoire, such as Toscanini, Giulini, Abbado, Chailly, Sinopoli, and maybe even Muti.

I have nothing as such against Italian school singers in Wagner, though no name immediately comes to mind - undoubtedly there are examples to be found. But the taste of the pudding is in the eating: and I find Domingo - who is an excellent singer - akward and out of place in Wagner. Apart from other considerations I feel he doesn't have the right voice.

Q

[M forever]

That makes me curious to hear Sinopoli's L’Olandese Volante now. I actually have the CDs, but haven't listened much to it yet...I will try to find it in my still completely chaotic collection and listen to it, especially Domingo's stuff.

BTW, it just occurred to me that you and me are the only two posters here known by just a letter, and these letters are M and Q...I guess people will suspect some kind of conspiracy is going on here. That also makes me your boss, technically.