Jazz "A.C." - After Coltrane

[San Antone]

This is where people can post their favorite free or experimental jazz inspired by the late music of John Coltrane.  I will get it started with an excerpt from a longer article I wrote for my blog.



The recordings John Coltrane made in the 1960s with his "classic quartet" (Elvin Jones, McCoy Tyner and Jimmy Garrison) were a major landmark in the history of jazz.  Jazz was not the same before or after and all jazz players felt an obligation to respond to Coltrane's music.  Some chose to pay homage and created their own music much in the same vein; others, mainly saxophonists, had to grapple with playing their instrument in the wake of John Coltrane's evolution.  But as the '60s progressed, Coltrane's music became more and more detached from the tradition of jazz.  The classic quartet broke apart from the stress Coltrane put on it due to his demands for a freer and more dissonant music.  Adding a second bassist, or second drummer, or second sax, all changed the delicate balance of the classic quartet to the point that Elvin Jones, then McCoy Tyner felt they no longer had a place in the group..

Coltrane's final bands would often include Pharoah Sanders, Rashied Ali, Archie Shepp, and his wife Alice Coltrane.   All of these musicians made records that carried forward Coltrane's legacy.  RTRH

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[escher]

One of my favorite musicians influenced by him is Tisziji Munoz.
While there are few other great guitarists who have been influenced by him in a way or another (from Carlos Santana to John McLaughlin, Allan Holdsworth, Arthur Rhames and Sonny Greenwich) I think that he is the one who most successfully has taken the ideas and the spiritual passion of the saxophonist on the guitar.
I still can't undestand why he's so little known

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZhrgSA4hDMU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wRWquiM2aqo

[San Antone]

One of my favorite musicians influenced by him is Tisziji Munoz.
While there are few other great guitarists who have been influenced by him in a way or another (from Carlos Santana to John McLaughlin, Allan Holdsworth, Arthur Rhames and Sonny Greenwich) I think that he is the one who most successfully has taken the ideas and the spiritual passion of the saxophonist on the guitar.
I still can't undestand why he's so little known

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZhrgSA4hDMU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wRWquiM2aqo

Excellent guitarist!

[Purusha]

As far as i'm concerned, there is no "after" Coltrane. He essentially pushed Jazz as far as it could go, and he made it work only because his sense of spirituality was genuine and his religiosity had nothing to do with the phony new age crap his wife and many of the people around him were into. And he broke "free" to ascend to an higher level. For him the avant-guard wasn't the point, it was just a mean to an end. The same cannot be said for anyone who came after him, who mistook and continue to mistake the mean for the end.

[James]

As far as i'm concerned, there is no "after" Coltrane.

There certainly was, as History shows us, Jazz had A LOT of exploring to do still, so he didn't push Jazz as far as it could go, he worked within songbook and exhausted it and then progressed and was influenced by aspects of the "free music/jazz" stuff that was going on prior and during his life, in his own way. Bottom line, Coltrane simply did his thing and it was an inspiration to many musicians (past/present/future) but they weren't influenced by JUST him, his work ethic was impeccable, and his mind very curious .. but musicians take inspiration from many sources, as Coltrane did himself. (i.e. Bird, Miles, Sonny, Shankar & eastern music, Stravinsky & classical music, Slominsky etc., etc., etc.) There was and still is a lot of experimenting and exploring happening after him.

[escher]

As far as i'm concerned, there is no "after" Coltrane. He essentially pushed Jazz as far as it could go, and he made it work only because his sense of spirituality was genuine and his religiosity had nothing to do with the phony new age crap his wife and many of the people around him were into. And he broke "free" to ascend to an higher level. For him the avant-guard wasn't the point, it was just a mean to an end. The same cannot be said for anyone who came after him, who mistook and continue to mistake the mean for the end.

As great as Coltrane was (and he certainly was one of the greatest figures in jazz), this view of him as a sort of god between mortals to me is decidedly exaggerated, and certainly I have certainly many doubts saying that his sense of spirituality was genuine, the one of any other musican was not. I mean, seriously?

[Purusha]

To me, Coltrane was a spiritual person who also happened to be an artist. As an artist, he was as good as it gets, but in terms of genius there were others who were his equal. What made him different was his religiosity, precisely. To me this alters his relationship with the avant-guard completely. For him, the act of cracking the shell of relativity was not an end onto itself but a mean to reach something higher. In Hindu parlance, he overcame maya in order to reach Atma.

Keep in mind that i consider the spiritual revolution of the 60s to be a really bad one in general, but if this collective attempt to brake "free" of the limitations of maya merely pushed the majority into the abyss, chances are that for some people it was an opening for an upwards rather than downwards direction, and for me this was definitely the case for Coltrane.

[San Antone]

Continuing the line from Coltrane, I think Sam Rivers and Gary Bartz deserve mentioning.  Sam Rivers was actually a few years older than Coltrane but did not have an impact until after Coltrane.  He was from Boston, which is a city that has produced several musicians of the jazz avant garde.  Gary Bartz was younger and went into other styles, but also came out of the Coltrane sound of the late '60s.

Recorded in 1967 but not released until almost ten years later, Dimensions & Extensions is an excellent Sam Rivers recording.



Rivers became the de facto leader of the "loft movement" in New York during the early '70s.  This was a very fertile period for jazz that took place almost by accident. 

Harlem Bush Music by Bartz is also one worth hearing.  Representing the politics of the time it manages to still sound current, which could mean the music has inherent strength, or could mean the US hasn't made much progress dealing with issues that provided the impetus for much of this music.



Bartz would use a lot of singing both by himself and other members of the group.  I've Known Rivers, 1973, is an album I like a bit better.

https://www.youtube.com/v/b-MBWijPQk4

[James]

To me, Coltrane was a spiritual person who also happened to be an artist. As an artist, he was as good as it gets, but in terms of genius there were others who were his equal. What made him different was his religiosity, precisely. To me this alters his relationship with the avant-guard completely. For him, the act of cracking the shell of relativity was not an end onto itself but a mean to reach something higher. In Hindu parlance, he overcame maya in order to reach Atma.

Coltrane slowly moved towards that .. and spiritual overtones/aura show up later (i.e. A Love Supreme dedicated to God), but not so much musically. What makes Coltrane different is that he had his own voice as an artist that set him apart from the rest. But still, that is not to say he was an Alien, one can clearly hear where he was coming from, and to a certain extent who and what his influences were. His stint with Miles more than all else really pushed his art forward and he really took off from there.

[escher]

I'd like to mention another extraordinary guitarist influenced by Coltrane, Linc Chamberland. As Munoz he is not well known, and as Munoz he could play incredibly fast (I'm tempted to say that he was the fastest guitarist back in the seventies, even considering Mclaughlin, Holdsworth, Munoz, Di Meola, Tommy Tedesco, John Goodsall, Ollie Halsall, Arthur Rhames etc) but it doesn't sound forced or a empty display of virtuosity. But what I appreciate more about him is his harmonic sense of his comping, he was able to play very "out" and deep.
Here's a track from his album "A place within" recorded in 1976 with another well known disciple of Coltrane,  Dave Liebman. I guess it's a good example of the fact that to limit the judgment on the spiritual element is preposterous. In fact, here there's no trace of that sense of prayer that it's possible to associate with Coltrane. But still is great music.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d7mnZU_fqGM

[Trazom H Cab]

The most remarkable thing about Coltrane's musicianship is that he had rotten teeth and yet somehow could still play his axe.

[XB-70 Valkyrie]

Interesting topic, but I wonder whether or not the most profound rift in jazz is demarcated by Coltrane, or perhaps the leaders of the bebop era including Charlie Parker and Dizzy Gillespie.

(In any case, I love the Coltrane icon from the Church of St. John Coltrane in San Francisco posted by the OP.)

The other member of this lineage that everyone always seems to forget about is Albert Ayler. To carry the religious connotations to their extreme, Ayler, Coltrane, and Pharoah Sanders have been compared to the trinity: Coltrane as God the Father, Sanders as God the Son, and Ayler as God the Holy Spirit. Whereas Coltrane's style was always polished no matter how emotional, and, in later years was influenced by eastern music, Ayler was always emotionally raw and more influenced by blues and gospel music.

In any case, I highly recommend:

[San Antone]

Interesting topic, but I wonder whether or not the most profound rift in jazz is demarcated by Coltrane, or perhaps the leaders of the bebop era including Charlie Parker and Dizzy Gillespie.

(In any case, I love the Coltrane icon from the Church of St. John Coltrane in San Francisco posted by the OP.)

The other member of this lineage that everyone always seems to forget about is Albert Ayler. To carry the religious connotations to their extreme, Ayler, Coltrane, and Pharoah Sanders have been compared to the trinity: Coltrane as God the Father, Sanders as God the Son, and Ayler as God the Holy Spirit. Whereas Coltrane's style was always polished no matter how emotional, and, in later years was influenced by eastern music, Ayler was always emotionally raw and more influenced by blues and gospel music.

In any case, I highly recommend:

Excellent choice.  Thanks.

[James]

Can't stand Albert.

[XB-70 Valkyrie]

Here, get some religion

http://www.coltranechurch.org/

[king ubu]

I'd rather go with "Spiritual Unity" as a starting point for Ayler. The Impulse sessions are, I guess, third period, and at least some of them are probably failures (though the live recording - complete on a 2-CD-set - is great indeed and "Love Cry" pretty good, too). Some recording in quartet with Don Cherry (I like the Hilversum one best) and then "Spirits Rejoice" would be my next recommendations.

[Scion7]

I think your premise is a bit off.
It was Ornette Coleman and Cecil Taylor that started what we call "free Jazz" - Coltrane took the tenor saxophone in Jazz as far as it could go, that's true, with his modal quartet with Jones and Tyner (and the various bassists).   Albert, Archie, etc., etc., would be unthinkable without John Coltrane.

Coltrane had influenced both rock and jazz musicians, and his raga-like sheets of sound can be heard in the jazz-rock fusion movement that he did not take part in; that was pioneered by others, both before and after his death.

Charles Mingus did his last "new" music in '65; after his return in the Seventies he composed great stuff sometimes, but no new ground broken.

Miles shook up the Jazz world with with In A Silent Way and Bitches Brew by 1968.

The last really significant "new" music in Jazz would be the fusion band's album The Inner Mounting Flame in 1972- all other electric Jazz music after that comes from what McLaughlin did with the Mahavishnu Orchestra, or the directions Miles took on his two standout records above (like what Weather Report did) or ealier, lighter-tinged stuff like Coryell-era Gary Burton).

So there are several watershed moments in Jazz after Coltrane's death.  And nothing truly new after the early Seventies - plenty of great music after 1972, but these were all extensions and explorations of territories that had been previously opened up, even by some of the Masters that did that initial innovation.

[escher]

I think your premise is a bit off.
It was Ornette Coleman and Cecil Taylor that started what we call "free Jazz" - Coltrane took the tenor saxophone in Jazz as far as it could go, that's true, with his modal quartet with Jones and Tyner (and the various bassists).   Albert, Archie, etc., etc., would be unthinkable without John Coltrane.

I think that was Coltrane more influenced by Ayler than the opposite (maybe there's some influence of Coltrane on his last album, not his most successful stuff).
Ayler was more influenced by Cecil Taylor and maybe from some older player like Sidney Bechet but then he developed his completely unique style.

[Scion7]

Well, yes, you have a point, Escher.  Some quotes:

FRANK KOFSKY: Have you listened to some of the other young saxophonists besides Pharoah?
JOHN COLTRANE: Yes. Albert Ayler first. I've listened very closely to him.  He's something else.
Kofsky: Could you see any relationship between what he was doing and what you were doing?
Coltrane: Not necessarily.  I think what he was doing, he was moving music into even higher frequencies. Maybe where I left off, maybe where he started, or something.

-posthumous interview printed in March 1968

[chadfeldheimer]

The last really significant "new" music in Jazz would be the fusion band's album The Inner Mounting Flame in 1972- all other electric Jazz music after that comes from what McLaughlin did with the Mahavishnu Orchestra, or the directions Miles took on his two standout records above (like what Weather Report did) or ealier, lighter-tinged stuff like Coryell-era Gary Burton).

So there are several watershed moments in Jazz after Coltrane's death.  And nothing truly new after the early Seventies - plenty of great music after 1972, but these were all extensions and explorations of territories that had been previously opened up, even by some of the Masters that did that initial innovation.

I think Ornette Coleman's harmolodic concept you can hear on albums like "Dancing in Your Head", "Body Meta" was a new thing at the time, inspiring a lot of interesting artists/groups like Decoding Society, James Blood Ulmer, The Contortions, The Lounge Lizards, Last Exit, John Zorn etc.