General Tchaikovsky composing question?

[deckard1]

Hello,

I've been reading a bit about Tchaikovsky and his life. From what I have read it sounds like he didn't 'really' play the piano. I was reading he could play a little bit and do a lot of tricks...but, he had no formal training (like Rachmaninoff, for example). How was Tchaikovsky able to compose piano concertos of such complexity if he couldn't actually play it himself? I don't understand.

Thanks,
Steve

[starrynight]

Well he must have been able to play his first concerto somewhat, as according to the history section of this article he played a runthrough of it for the prospective pianist.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piano_Concerto_No._1_%28Tchaikovsky%29

[Jo498]

I guess he played fairly well, just not polished enough to publicly perform as a virtuoso.

[starrynight]

The virtuoso turned out more frightened of the piece than Tchaikovsky on that runthrough, which is ironic.

[Jo498]

Maybe because the demands for a public performance are considerably higher than for a private runthrough? I don't know. To me it seems that Tchaikovsky was a competent pianist but did not perform as a public virtuoso (unlike e.g Brahms or Rachmaninov).
But while many composers were also virtuoso performers, other were not and it did not keep them from composing concertos.
Obvious for most non-piano concertos. Neither Brahms nor Tchaikovsky played the violin at all, for all I know. Nor did Schumann play 'cello etc.

[ZauberdrachenNr.7]

Though Tchaikovsky studied the piano, flute and organ, I believe his real and considerable gifts were melody and orchestration.  Like many composers before him and since, he asked virtuosi for help with his concertos, he did this, arguably, more than the norm.  And not always amicably.  It may be telling - in regard to your question - that his solo piano work isn't much heard nowadays. 

[Brian]

Like many composers before him and since, he asked virtuosi for help with his concertos, he did this, arguably, more than the norm.

For some context here: Mendelssohn asked Ferdinand David for help writing his violin concerto, Dvorak asked a cellist for help writing his cello concerto (but rejected most of the cellist's ideas since they were bad), and Grieg collaborated with Percy Grainger on revisions to his piano concerto.

[deckard1]

Thanks for the excellent replies. It's interesting...I am reading Tchaikovsky's harmony book, that he wrote himself, and he states that there are forbidden rules within classical composing (e.g. parallel fifths, etc.). Is this still true today?

[Ken B]

It may be telling - in regard to your question - that his solo piano work isn't much heard nowadays.

True, though for me a bit sad. It was hearing some, played by Merv Griffin(!) late one night in grade 12 or 13, that prompted me to head to the library the next day and listen to my first bit of classical ...

[Gurn Blanston]

For some context here: Mendelssohn asked Ferdinand David for help writing his violin concerto, Dvorak asked a cellist for help writing his cello concerto (but rejected most of the cellist's ideas since they were bad), and Grieg collaborated with Percy Grainger on revisions to his piano concerto.

And Joseph Joachim (violin) advised Brahms, and Anton Kraft (cello) advised Haydn on Cello #2, undoubtedly there were others. If a composer had to be a player of the first water on every instrument he wrote for, like Karl on the clarinet, we wouldn't have too much music available!!   

[some guy]

Plus, the choices one makes for an instrument one does not play may be different from the choices one makes for an instrument one does. And while this or that virtuoso might whinge at first, like happened with Tchaikovsky's unplayable piano concerto, the successive judgements of other players, as well as of other listeners, might vary some.

[jochanaan]

Thanks for the excellent replies. It's interesting...I am reading Tchaikovsky's harmony book, that he wrote himself, and he states that there are forbidden rules within classical composing (e.g. parallel fifths, etc.). Is this still true today?

Only if you're writing music in a neoclassical or neoRomantic style.  And even then, you can get away with lots that was not acceptable in earlier centuries.

[(poco) Sforzando]

Only if you're writing music in a neoclassical or neoRomantic style.  And even then, you can get away with lots that was not acceptable in earlier centuries.

Good answer. As to the original question, part of a composer's training is a study of orchestration, that is the use of the instruments of the orchestra, so that even if a composer does not play a particular instrument (tuba, bassoon, timpani, piccolo, what have you), he will learn both the capabilities of the specific instrument as well as how to use the instrument in combination with others. That said, almost any qualified musician or composer will have some familiarity with the piano, as it is the most essential solo instrument with the largest and most significant repertoire, and besides it is the most "self-contained" instrument, being able to play the most complex musical textures and chords. On the other hand, writing for other instruments, such as violin, trombone, or harp, involves a wholly different education, as what is possible or idiomatic on one instrument is often inappropriate for others.

But even a composer well-versed in orchestration will often seek out players for advice on using their instruments. Stravinsky began his violin concerto with a particular 3-note chord in mind to use as a motto for all three movements, and when he showed it to the violinist Samuel Dushkin, Dushkin advised him that the chord was unplayable. Dushkin then returned home and found that not only was the chord playable, but it fit the hand very well.

[relm1]

It is not that unusual to be unable to play the piano and still write extremely well for it.  What is important is that the composer has a proficiency in the technique of the instrument they are writing for.  Some of my classmates were very good pianists (a few had a duel degree in piano and composition) where others were weak.  The piano was seen as a tool to get the ideas out and explored but maybe we are not able to perform it ourselves.  It really isn't so uncommon but again, the instrumental understanding should be there even if the performance skill isn't there. 

[San Antone]

It may be telling - in regard to your question - that his solo piano work isn't much heard nowadays.

It is too bad more pianists don't do his solo piano music, it is very good and shows a side of him unknown from his other genres Mikhail Pletnev has put out this excellent recording.

[asin]B0007XZUGE[/asin]

I was listening to another recording that escapes me at the moment.  But I find it very enjoyable and worthwhile.

[Monsieur Croche]

The list of famous composers who also played the piano to some level of 'virtuoso' is quite long, whether they composed a piano concerto or not. Because the piano is an instrument that allows one person to play complex polyphony, i.e. a multiple number of lines, harmonies, many composers and conductors develop a high degree of skill on the instrument.

Very few well-known piano concerti were written by a composer who does/did not have a fairly well-advanced level of familiarity with the piano and piano technique. Their technique and reliability to perform consistently may not be as consistently reliable or have the finesse of the professional concert pianist.

Composers do learn to orchestrate and write [very well] for instruments without having any direct experience playing those instruments. As said earlier in this thread, they will often consult directly with professional players when they have further questions.

There is enough documentation about composers consulting with performers about both orchestral parts as well as for solo instrumental works: however, I don't know of any examples where a composer of any of the better known piano concerti has needed to consult with a pianist, -- leaving me thinking most all who wrote complex solo piano music or concerti certainly 'knew their way around the instrument' enough to know what was possible, even if what they write makes greater technical demands than they had themselves.

[In music schools, conducting majors are required, and are regularly tested, to be able to sight read a full orchestral score they have not seen before, with all its transposing parts, at the piano, near in tempo, and spontaneously play a very passable piano reduction of that score.

Whether you are a composition major or minor, most composition teachers will refuse to play, at the piano, any of their student's scores, even though those teachers are fully capable of doing that. The student was required to, at the piano, play their own works, regardless of the instrumentation, demanding a lot of the same skills demanded of the conducting majors.

[ComposerOfAvantGarde]

The list of famous composers who also played the piano to some level of 'virtuoso' is quite long, whether they composed a piano concerto or not. Because the piano is an instrument that allows one person to play complex polyphony, i.e. a multiple number of lines, harmonies, many composers and conductors develop a high degree of skill on the instrument.

Very few well-known piano concerti were written by a composer who does/did not have a fairly well-advanced level of familiarity with the piano and piano technique. Their technique and reliability to perform consistently may not be as consistently reliable or have the finesse of the professional concert pianist.

Composers do learn to orchestrate and write [very well] for instruments without having any direct experience playing those instruments. As said earlier in this thread, they will often consult directly with professional players when they have further questions.

There is enough documentation about composers consulting with performers about both orchestral parts as well as for solo instrumental works: however, I don't know of any examples where a composer of any of the better known piano concerti has needed to consult with a pianist, -- leaving me thinking most all who wrote complex solo piano music or concerti certainly 'knew their way around the instrument' enough to know what was possible, even if what they write makes greater technical demands than they had themselves.

[In music schools, conducting majors are required, and are regularly tested, to be able to sight read a full orchestral score they have not seen before, with all its transposing parts, at the piano, near in tempo, and spontaneously play a very passable piano reduction of that score.

Whether you are a composition major or minor, most composition teachers will refuse to play, at the piano, any of their student's scores, even though those teachers are fully capable of doing that. The student was required to, at the piano, play their own works, regardless of the instrumentation, demanding a lot of the same skills demanded of the conducting majors.

As a non-pianist, am I then required to learn piano in order to study conducting? I find this rather bizarre as I do play an instrument which perfectly capable with complex polyphonic works and I've played such music by composers from Bach to Elliott Carter.....

As a guitarist, I do also know that many virtuosic guitar works—including concertos—were written for the instrument by non-guitarists.

https://youtu.be/zcEOF869hJc

[Monsieur Croche]

As a non-pianist, am I then required to learn piano in order to study conducting? I find this rather bizarre as I do play an instrument which perfectly capable with complex polyphonic works and I've played such music by composers from Bach to Elliott Carter.....

As a guitarist, I do also know that many virtuosic guitar works—including concertos—were written for the instrument by non-guitarists.

https://youtu.be/zcEOF869hJc

Lots of instrumental works requiring virtuosity were composed by people who did not play the instrument: those seem to be, apart from guitar, or organ [another keyboard] -- usually for single-line instruments, some capable of double stops, tops.

I just doubt that is also true of just about any of the better-known piano concerti or the more complex of the piano literature.

That was Conducting majors, though if you took a class, minimum, or made a minor of it,you might have to use your piano harmony skills to play from a simpler score, maybe with only Horn and Clarinet as transposing instruments.

My keyboard harmony class included exercises playing from three clefs, with a change of clef often enough found on one stave, switching between bass, Alto and Soprano, maybe tenor clef: nothing virtuosic in the material there, but that class was required of everyone, singers, other instrumental players, theory comp, i.e. regardless of the major area of their music studies. I would be surprised if "less than" was required today, at least in the more 'respectable' music departments or conservatories.

[ComposerOfAvantGarde]

Lots of instrumental works requiring virtuosity were composed by people who did not play the instrument: those seem to be, apart from guitar, or organ [another keyboard] -- usually for single-line instruments, some capable of double stops, tops.

I just doubt that is also true of just about any of the better-known piano concerti or the more complex of the piano literature.

That was Conducting majors, though if you took a class, minimum, or made a minor of it,you might have to use your piano harmony skills to play from a simpler score, maybe with only Horn and Clarinet as transposing instruments.

My keyboard harmony class included exercises playing from three clefs, with a change of clef often enough found on one stave, switching between bass, Alto and Soprano, maybe tenor clef: nothing virtuosic in the material there, but that class was required of everyone, singers, other instrumental players, theory comp, i.e. regardless of the major area of their music studies. I would be surprised if "less than" was required today, at least in the more 'respectable' music departments or conservatories.

Ah, well with my piano skills it would certainly be a stretch for me to play a even simple score on first reading at the piano!

[Jo498]

I wonder if there is ANY well-known piano concerto by a composer who was not at least a decent pianist. I do not count Tchaikovsky because while no performing virtuoso he certainly was a decent pianist. (Similarly Haydn at a time when the technical demands were not as high as later, starting with Beethoven and Hummel)

The only candidate that comes to mind (and it's not among the most famous ones), is Schoenberg's. His instrument was the cello and I am not aware that he played piano on a (semi)professional level.

Of course, as mentioned, there are many violin, cello and woodwind or brass concertos by composers who did not play those instruments.