Can you discern a persons nature from the genre of classical music they like ?

[mc ukrneal]

You actually did. Correct me if I´m wrong: what you basically say is "it is possible in theory to discern a person´s nature from the genre of classical music they like, but for all practical purposes pèrsonally I cannot do it." Is that correct?

More or less, though for all practical purposes=I haven't the knowledge/study/experience to do it at this time. And whether it is 'in theory' or applicable today may be up for debate.

What I objected to at the beginning was simply a rejection of even the possibility there could be something there. It seemed common sense to me. I wasn't expecting quite the discussion that followed, though some of it was quite illuminating. 

[Florestan]

More or less, though for all practical purposes=I haven't the knowledge/study/experience to do it at this time. And whether it is 'in theory' or applicable today may be up for debate.

Okay, thanks. That settles the matter, I think, and we can let it rest for good. 

[Jo498]

If one puts it the other way round: Would not most of us avid classical music fans in this forum agree that our love of music is a pretty important part of our personality? (I really want to avoid "nature" here, in my way of speaking we all share the human nature, we are all homines sapientes and rational animals and I would not want to call a personal essence nature)
Someone above hinted at a similarity with dating and dating profiles. If one tells something about oneself would it not be an important part of it if classical music is something one spends 1-2 hours or more listening to everyday (and half an hour or more discussing it on certain internet boards).

And do we really believe that our hobbies, music preferences etc. are just random preferences, not at least partially integrated into something we call personality (or certain parts/aspects thereof)?

I get that some people violently disagree with stereotyping and simplifying and I agree that there is a certain danger. But is not what I wrote just above the usual way we see ourselves. And if this is not an illusion there should be connections between more general personality traits and e.g. music preferences. These are not transparent connections and establishing statistical correlations would only be a first step. But if the question were absurd, I'd have to seriously re-consider the image I have of myself in which I view my deep affinity to certain music as a pretty important part of what it is to be the person I am (rather than somebody else).

[Florestan]

http://econtent.hogrefe.com/doi/abs/10.1027/1614-0001/a000082

Individuals open to experience prefer reflective and complex music (e.g., classical) and intense and rebellious music (e.g., rock), whereas they dislike upbeat and conventional types of music (e.g., pop music). Extraverts, on the other hand, prefer upbeat and conventional and energetic and rhythmic types of music (e.g., rap/hip-hop)

So, according to the study, if an individual is both open to experience and extravert (a combination which is not all infrequent) he dislikes "upbeat and conventional types of music" (whatever this means) while at the same time liking it. Is it not mindboggling, really?

The present study is the first to examine the relationship between music preferences and personality among a sample of young Germans (N = 422, age range 21–26 years).

This is even more mindboggling. 422 young Germans are supposed to be representative for what, other than a group of 422 young Germans? Can one extrapolate the correlations found among them to 5000 Germans aged 40-45?

What is then the value of these studies, other than securing tenure and list of publications to some guys and girls? 

[James]

If one puts it the other way round: Would not most of us avid classical music fans in this forum agree that our love of music is a pretty important part of our personality? (I really want to avoid "nature" here, in my way of speaking we all share the human nature, we are all homines sapientes and rational animals and I would not want to call a personal essence nature) Someone above hinted at a similarity with dating and dating profiles. If one tells something about oneself would it not be an important part of it if classical music is something one spends 1-2 hours or more listening to everyday (and half an hour or more discussing it on certain internet boards).

And do we really believe that our hobbies, music preferences etc. are just random preferences, not at least partially integrated into something we call personality (or certain parts/aspects thereof)?

I get that some people violently disagree with stereotyping and simplifying and I agree that there is a certain danger. But is not what I wrote just above the usual way we see ourselves. And if this is not an illusion there should be connections between more general personality traits and e.g. music preferences. These are not transparent connections and establishing statistical correlations would only be a first step. But if the question were absurd, I'd have to seriously re-consider the image I have of myself in which I view my deep affinity to certain music as a pretty important part of what it is to be the person I am (rather than somebody else).

Well said.

Actually, I did answer your question (he repeats yet again).

Yea .. I answered  & interpreted the thread's question too, straight off, and repeated it several times, even including how to better approach it, and what to consider.

[Ken B]

Nope. The burden of proof is on he who claims something, not on he who denies it.

And the only people who did claim anything for sure were those who denied it was even remotely possible. What else can saying it's obviously false and not a fit question for adults mean?

[Elgarian]

If one puts it the other way round: Would not most of us avid classical music fans in this forum agree that our love of music is a pretty important part of our personality? ... if the question were absurd, I'd have to seriously re-consider the image I have of myself in which I view my deep affinity to certain music as a pretty important part of what it is to be the person I am (rather than somebody else).

Yes, this is much the same as my own thoughts when we started on all this. The most interesting answers (which won't satisfy a scientific reductionist, of course) are more likely to be found by intelligent introspection. I know that my deepest musical passions are related in some important way to my personality - or at least, to my own understanding of it. I can't conceive how I could retain my sense of identity otherwise.

[Ken B]

I am going to leap to Neal's defence here. I don't think it impossible that there can be connections between personality factors, especially as measured on some standardized tests, and tastes. Obviously if there were a strong and obvious correlation we would know it (and the La Mer fan club would probably all be arrested!!) but I for one can't discount some broad tendencies, as Neal observes about how specificity matters.

That is what Florestan reads as me saying you can defintitey,l positively tell character from one specific musical preference. 

Yea .. I answered  & interpreted the thread's question too, straight off, and repeated it several times, even including how to better approach it, and what to consider.

Yes. Me too.

Yes, this is much the same as my own thoughts when we started on all this. The most interesting answers (which won't satisfy a scientific reductionist, of course) are more likely to be found by intelligent introspection. I know that my deepest musical passions are related in some important way to my personality - or at least, to my own understanding of it. I can't conceive how I could retain my sense of identity otherwise.

Well normally I would consider that a cogent, intelligent comment. But now I understand that all tha really matters is if you can tell me what your love of baroque music says about you. 

[Florestan]

And the only people who did claim anything for sure were those who denied it was even remotely possible.

Yes, I still deny it´s even remotely possible for you, Ken, to tell the nature / personality / whatever term you want to use, of a person from the classical music genre they like --- and I stand by it. And you can still prove me wrong by actually doing just that, which is what I invited you to do all along.

[Gurn Blanston]

Yes, this is much the same as my own thoughts when we started on all this. The most interesting answers (which won't satisfy a scientific reductionist, of course) are more likely to be found by intelligent introspection. I know that my deepest musical passions are related in some important way to my personality - or at least, to my own understanding of it. I can't conceive how I could retain my sense of identity otherwise.

I think this is where you and Jo are correct, on the one hand, but missing the point on the other. Since the question, such as it is (which the 'failure to return' of the OP is duly noted), lies in whether I can tell something about your identity from what music you like. And while there is no denying that your preferences shape your personality, for me to be able to interpret how is not possible unless I am intimately familiar with you over an extended period. Possibly my wife could tell you how music has changed ME over the last 30 years, especially once I found a genre to specialize in, but you certainly couldn't tell on your own.

[Florestan]

I know that my deepest musical passions are related in some important way to my personality - or at least, to my own understanding of it.

Of course. I don´t deny it. But let me put it in a different way: I too know that my reasons for loving Haydn´s music are different, sometimes markedly so, than Gurn´s. We both love Haydn´s music but we approach it from different, even divergent, angles. And that is why I say, claim and maintain, that no amount of sampling young Germans / Americans / Romanians / Whatever will ever be able to tell, even with the vaguest and broadest accuracy, what is my personality, or what is Gurn´s personality, from the mere fact that we both love Haydn´s SQs and symphonies. Yet I can be proved wrong in a minute, by anyone being able to do just that.

[Ken B]

Yes, I still deny it´s even remotely possible for you, Ken, to tell the nature / personality / whatever term you want to use, of a person from the classical music genre they like --- and I stand by it. And you can still prove me wrong by actually doing just that, which is what I invited you to do all along.

And I doubt that you can tell anything about a person's politics from whether someone has Morton's Toe, but that does not constitute an argument against the claim that political opinions and physical traits can be related. The difference is, I don't claim to have refuted the broader claim with my negative example, and you do.

[Gurn Blanston]

And I doubt that you can tell anything about a person's politics from whether someone has Morton's Toe, but that does not constitute an argument against the claim that political opinions and physical traits can be related. The difference is, I don't claim to have refuted the broader claim with my negative example, and you do.

There was no broader claim, only a question in the sense of 'what do you think?'.

I don't want to run this gamut all over again, I thought it was silly the first time. But I am trying to imagine what sort of evidence it would take to refute the claim positively, to your satisfaction. It is an 'angels dancing on the head of a pin' sort of thing to start with, and so for every refutation, the simple question 'what about this one?' will cancel it out and start you over. Your sense of metaphysics has outweighed your logic in this case, I think. 

[Florestan]

And I doubt that you can tell anything about a person's politics from whether someone has Morton's Toe, but that does not constitute an argument against the claim that political opinions and physical traits can be related.

Sure, anyone can claim whatever correlation crosses his mind. It´s only that the burden is on him to prove it. Fort instance, it seems to me that moonlight might have an effect on how quick rubber-made sneakers deteriorate --- but unfortunately I am not an academic so there´s no chance I ever get funding for doing some research and publishing an article in the International Journal of Moonlight Science and Technology.    

[Elgarian]

I think this is where you and Jo are correct, on the one hand, but missing the point on the other.

Yes, I think that's right as far as it goes, Gurn. I think I want to add though that I was taking the ball and running with it, rather than batting it back. I mentioned earlier that I suspect the question itself arises because we feel intuitively that there is some important link in all this. 'My music' and 'me' feel as if they're  connected, so we seem to have an insight into the connection between 'our music' and our own natures. So not perhaps unnaturally, we think we might be able to reverse it. To misquote Ruskin: 'Tell me what you listen to and I'll tell you what you are'. But it doesn't follow that we can, as we seem to be mostly agreeing.

[some guy]

Well, things seem to have settled down to the extent that perhaps another question or two could be usefully floated.

If this sets off another flame war, I swear I will go live in a monastery in Tibet.

Anyway, with some trepidation, here goes:

1) Why would you want to try to discern a person's nature from the kind of classical music they like?

2) If you could actually do said discerning, what do you suppose you would have as a result?

Bonus) How may classical listeners confine themselves to only one kind of classical music? I listen to every genre there is, from every era. My knowledge, and my listening time, drops off rather sharply around 1700, but there's plenty of music before that that I enjoy.

My knowledge, and my listening time, does a sharp uptick around 1906, but again, there's plenty of music from before that that I enjoy.

I do tend to enjoy the music of people who are alive. I certainly enjoy the company of people who are alive.

Generally we get to know people by hanging out with them. It's neither efficient nor reliable, but I can't think of any better way of doing it.

[Gurn Blanston]

Well, things seem to have settled down to the extent that perhaps another question or two could be usefully floated.

If this sets off another flame war, I swear I will go live in a monastery in Tibet.

Anyway, with some trepidation, here goes:

1) Why would you want to try to discern a person's nature from the kind of classical music they like?

I really don't know, except as some sort of a metaphysical exercise. I agree, I would rather talk with them (at a distance, of course) than divine answers from their preferences.

2) If you could actually do said discerning, what do you suppose you would have as a result?

Nothing of value since it is without the context of the individual.

Bonus) How may classical listeners confine themselves to only one kind of classical music? I listen to every genre there is, from every era. My knowledge, and my listening time, drops off rather sharply around 1700, but there's plenty of music before that that I enjoy.

At one time I listened to everything (except chant, dammit!). Now I don't. 95% of my listening is confined to 18th century Austria because I am trying to learn something, and this is the only way I can do it. Not that I don't like and appreciate other music, but time is finite, despite what the science says.

I do tend to enjoy the music of people who are alive. I certainly enjoy the company of people who are alive.

Generally we get to know people by hanging out with them. It's neither efficient nor reliable, but I can't think of any better way of doing it.

I enjoy musicians who are alive. Composers I can take or leave. Dead is good too. Better, generally. I agree with your second. It is neither safe nor sanitary, but it's the best we have.

[Karl Henning]

Composers I can take or leave. Dead is good too.

Eeek!



I know, I know . . . that's not at all what you meant . . . still, it gives a chap pause . . . .

[Gurn Blanston]

Eeek!



I know, I know . . . that's not at all what you meant . . . still, it gives a chap pause . . . .

Actually, I did it intentionally to make you come to the top and grab the lure.   It is part of my persona which should be obvious due to my love of the witty Mr. Haydn. 

[Karl Henning]

At least, I know when my chain is being pulled