French Opera?

[zamyrabyrd]

Well, Manon is also about obsession but there is relief from single-mindedness. In rounding out the characters, there is conflict between duty and love, for instance, des Grieux going to the extreme of burying himself in a monastery.
Manon's love of luxury and being admired is a variety of obsession. She veers back and forth between that and commitment to one person.  She thought that she could have everything. Their meeting at Saint Sulpice was a turning point for both of them and for the opera. 

Werther to me, though believable of course, is like witnessing a train dangerously going past its speed limit and bound to crash.

I don't know if anyone mentioned Poulenc's Dialogue des Carmélites, that would be on my top five.

[Tsaraslondon]

Well, Manon is also about obsession but there is relief from single-mindedness. In rounding out the characters, there is conflict between duty and love, for instance, des Grieux going to the extreme of burying himself in a monastery.
Manon's love of luxury and being admired is a variety of obsession. She veers back and forth between that and commitment to one person.  She thought that she could have everything. Their meeting at Saint Sulpice was a turning point for both of them and for the opera. 

Werther to me, though believable of course, is like witnessing a train dangerously going past its speed limit and bound to crash.

I don't know if anyone mentioned Poulenc's Dialogue des Carmélites, that would be on my top five.

You make very good points. Werther is a bit like watching a car crash in slow motion, I suppose.

Les Dialogues des Carmelites would surely make my top ten. As would Manon and Faust. Berlioz's version of the Faust legend should do, I suppose, but is excluded because it isn't an opera, and Berlioz never intended it to be staged. I'd probably include Les Contes d'Hoffmann, for all the textual difficulties.

Then what of Rossini's Guillaume Tell, Verdi's Don Carlos and Les Vepres Siciliennes, all written to French libretti. Are they excluded because their composers were Italian?

[kishnevi]

Les Troyens
Le Prophete
Contes dHoffmann
Don Quichotte
Castor et Pollux.

Benevenuto Cellini would have made the list if we do not include Baroque.
                       

Review of this thread...am I the only one who cares for Mayerbeer?

[mc ukrneal]

Review of this thread...am I the only one who cares for Mayerbeer?

Not at all. I was listening to this one not too long ago (very nice indeed)!
[asin]B000003LNQ[/asin]

[Florestan]

This too is superb:



Some other goodies in the same category:







There is an aria in the Cherubini whose melodic line is dangerously close to Freude, schöner Götterfunken --- or rather the other way around, given that Les deux journees was premiered in 1800 and its score was carefully and thoroughly studied by Beethoven.

Then there is of course the other Bizet: Don Procopio, Docteur Miracle, Les pecheurs des perles, La jeune fille de Perth, Ivan IV. All well worth a listening.

[Jaakko Keskinen]

I haven't yet listened much (if at all) to Meyerbeer so I can't yet say whether I like his music or not.

[(poco) Sforzando]

Les pecheurs des perles

Actually it is Les Pêcheurs de Perles and I don't quite know why, as I would expect the plural form of "de," i.e. "des," myself. Perhaps one of our French native speakers can elucidate. Be that as it may, the new Metropolitan Opera production just unveiled and broadcast in movie theaters worldwide is quite a stunning achievement. Considering how gifted the Met normally is these days in screwing up any opera it chooses to mount in a new production, it is gratifying to report the occasional triumphant success. Three powerful leads - Diana Damrau, Matthew Polenzani (a tenor who can actually sing high notes pianissimo), and Mariusz Kwiecien head the cast, with strong conducting from Gianandrea Noseda and a production that, while contemporary, altogether makes sense. Among its more remarkable features is a montage of acrobats "swimming" in harnesses across the enormous Met stage to depict deep-sea pearl fishers. The plot itself creaks a bit, and you could see Bizet hadn't quite mastered full control over his pacing, but there is some fine music, perhaps above all the deservedly famous tenor-baritone duet in Act One. Catch this in your local movie theatre if you can.

[ritter]

Actually it is Les Pêcheurs de Perles and I don't quite know why, as I would expect the plural form of "de," i.e. "des," myself. Perhaps one of our French native speakers can elucidate.

I'm not a native French speaker, albeit fluent in the language. And in some syntaxical aspects, French is similar to my native Spanish. Les Pêcheurs des perles would be understood as "The Fishers of the pearls" (strange as this may sound). One would be led to think one is talking of a specific set of pearls. Les Pêcheurs de perles is translated as The Pearl Fishers, i.e., people who fish pearls, generically. Same applies for instance to the first line of Verlaine's poem Mandoline: "Les donneurs de sérénades", and not "Les donneurs des sérénades" . Hope this helps.

[Florestan]

Actually it is Les Pêcheurs de Perles

Mea culpa on des but actually it is Les Pêcheurs de perles. 

[The new erato]

I'm not a native French speaker, albeit fluent in the language. And in some syntaxical aspects, French is similar to my native Spanish. Les Pêcheurs des perles would be understood as "The Fishers of the pearls" (strange as this may sound). One would be led to think one is talking of a specific set of pearls. Les Pêcheurs de perles is translated as The Pearl Fishers, i.e., people who fish pearls, generically. Same applies for instance to the first line of Verlaine's poem Mandoline: "Les donneurs de sérénades", and not "Les donneurs des sérénades" . Hope this helps.

Pearls as ONE group of objects as separate from a collection of individual pearls.  Very illuminating; thank you.

[(poco) Sforzando]

Mea culpa on des but actually it is Les Pêcheurs de perles. 

Are you disputing the capitalization of "Perles" then? Again, to my fluent speakers for judgment.

Very helpful, ritter, on the question raised. Merci donc.

[Florestan]

Are you disputing the capitalization of "Perles" then?

The issue is confused and confusing to say the least.





In both cases, an all-French cast (except for Cotrubaș), orchestra and conductor, yet two diferent ways of writing perles. 

EDIT: Here is what French Wkipedia says  :

Si le titre commence par un article défini (le, la, les) et qu'il ne constitue pas une phrase verbale :

    alors le premier substantif prend une majuscule :
        Les Liaisons dangereuses
        L'Homme qui rit
        La Liberté éclairant le monde

[...]

Des règles simplifiées pour les titres d'œuvres, s'appliquant à tous les cas de figure, sont aussi dans l'usage.

La majuscule est limitée au premier mot du titre , quel qu'il soit57, ainsi qu'aux noms propres figurant dans ce titre58.

    Les misérables
    La symphonie pastorale
    À l'ombre des jeunes filles en fleurs
    Du côté de chez Swann
    Le pain noir
    Les grands cimetières sous la lune

https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usage_des_majuscules_en_fran%C3%A7ais


So according to it, it should indeed be either Les Pêcheurs de perles or Les pêcheurs de perles

[ritter]

Are you disputing the capitalization of "Perles" then? Again, to my fluent speakers for judgment.

Very helpful, ritter, on the question raised. Merci donc.

De rien, cher ami. On the capitalization in titles, this wiki page may help: https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usage_des_majuscules_en_fran%C3%A7ais#Titres_d.E2.80.99.C5.93uvres_ou_de_p.C3.A9riodiques.

The issue is confused and confusing to say the least.





In both cases, an all-French cast (except for Cotrubaș), orchestra and conductor, yet two diferent ways of writing perles. 

Yep, rather confusing. I think the trend is increasingly to avoid capitalization of words in titles (at least in Spansih it's like this these days).

[Florestan]

De rien, cher ami. On the capitalization in titles, this wiki page may help: https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usage_des_majuscules_en_fran%C3%A7ais#Titres_d.E2.80.99.C5.93uvres_ou_de_p.C3.A9riodiques.

Yep, rather confusing. I think the trend is increasingly to avoid capitalization of words in titles (at least in Spansih it's like this these days).

I was editing my message while you posted that. See edit, please. 

[ritter]

I was editing my message while you posted that. See edit, please. 

Great minds think alike...but I beat you to it this time  ...Ha! Or would it be "Great Minds think alike" 

Cheers,

[Florestan]

Great minds think alike...but I beat you to it this time  ...Ha! Or would it be "Great Minds think alike" 

Cheers,

Hah! 

[(poco) Sforzando]

In both cases, an all-French cast (except for Cotrubaș), orchestra and conductor, yet two diferent ways of writing perles. 

No, actually two different ways of writing Pêcheurs. Let's at least keep our confusions straight, gentlemen. 

But most interesting. I was going by English rules, in which major nouns and verbs are generally capitalized in titles, but words like prepositions and conjunctions are generally not unless they are in the first position. But I admit I've often seen French titles capitalized according to the conventions you both bring up. Another convention in French I often see is to capitalize all letters of a surname, as in Pierre BOULEZ, but that's not done on the albums covers pictured here.

[Florestan]

No, actually two different ways of writing Pêcheurs. Let's at least keep our confusions straight, gentlemen. 

Too much confusion. 

But most interesting. I was going by English rules, in which major nouns and verbs are generally capitalized in titles, but words like prepositions and conjunctions are generally not unless they are in the first position. But I admit I've often seen French titles capitalized according to the conventions you both bring up.

FWIW, Romanian has the same convention as French: Pescuitorii de perle.

[Spineur]

I am french and I think french opera is a hard route to learn the language.  The diction of opera singer (including french ones) in french is rarely good enough to make the sentences intelligibles.  One of the few who manages the french diction very well is Roberto Alagna.  I was fortunate enough to hear him in the roi Arthus (Ernest Chausson) and le Cid (Massenet) that were given in Paris last year.  Le cid had not been given in paris in 100 YEARS (!!!)
Lesser known french operas are getting performed again.  I am going to see "La juive" (Halevy) in Lyon next month.  Felicien David "Le désert" a sung symphonic poem was recently performed and recorded.
Among my favorites rarely performed opera is "Les huguenots" by Giacomo Meyerbeer.  The performance with Joan Sutherland as Marguerite de Valois has never been surpassed.
Les Huguenots was extraordinairly popular in the 19 century as it was performed more than a 1000 times.  It requires exceptional singers, a chorus, a ballet and the sets are different at each acts.  This is the main reason why Opera houses with their budget problems rarely produce this amazing historical piece on St Barthelemy massacre.

[Tsaraslondon]

I am french and I think french opera is a hard route to learn the language.  The diction of opera singer (including french ones) in french is rarely good enough to make the sentences intelligibles.  One of the few who manages the french diction very well is Roberto Alagna.  I was fortunate enough to hear him in the roi Arthus (Ernest Chausson) and le Cid (Massenet) that were given in Paris last year.  Le cid had not been given in paris in 100 YEARS (!!!)
Lesser known french operas are getting performed again.  I am going to see "La juive" (Halevy) in Lyon next month.  Felicien David "Le désert" a sung symphonic poem was recently performed and recorded.
Among my favorites rarely performed opera is "Les huguenots" by Giacomo Meyerbeer.  The performance with Joan Sutherland as Marguerite de Valois has never been surpassed.

Nice to hear someone saying something good about Alagna for once. I've always thought he was at his best in French opera, and particularly enjoy his Werther and Romeo.

I speak a little French myself, and think I can usually spot a good accent. British singers (and listeners) often commend themselves on their French pronunciation, but I had to laugh on one occasion when seeing Carmen at the Royal Opera House, Covent Garden, with a largely British cast. I was sitting next to a French woman and her daughter and commented in the interval that they must be hearing an array of accents.

"Indeed," replied the woman, "but the Carmen (Baltsa - Greek) and Jose (Carreras - Spanish) are the best. Baltsa and Carreras were fantastic too, by the way, and provided me with one of my most memorable evenings at the opera.