Orchestrating: Gilding the Silk Purse?

[Cato]

Yesterday people were discussing chamber works versus their larger versions, e.g. Schoenberg's Verklärte Nacht.

I invariably choose the larger version: I just like the bigger sound! (Call me hopelessly shallow!)

The same goes for (again) Schoenberg's orchestration of the Brahms Piano Quartet: I like the orchestration better than the chamber original.

Alexander Nemtin orchestrated several of Scriabin's later piano works for a ballet called Nuances.

And of course there is the ultimate example: Moussorgsky-Ravel Pictures at an Exhibition.

Questions:

Do you prefer the original solo or chamber versions?

Are you perhaps an absolute purist who would shatter the inkpot of any dribbler who dared to orchestrate a solo/chamber work?

If not, Which works would you like to see orchestrated? 

My list: Borodin's String Quartets, Scriabin's Ninth Piano Sonata, Beethoven's last Piano Sonata Op. 111, the Ravel String Quartet, all of Bartok's String Quartets, Charles Ives' Concord Sonata.

[not edward]

Scriabin's Ninth Piano Sonata

This has been orchestrated by Georg Friedrich Haas. I have a very poor-quality aircheck of it--barely good enough to listen to--but it shows some imaginative touches, particularly in the use of pitched percussion.

[Mark]

I'm generally easy either way (I prefer, for example, the chamber versions of Chopin's Piano Concerti), but I'd slay in cold blood the man (or woman) who dared to orchestrate Ravel's fine String Quartet. If ever a chamber work could hold its own in its original form, this must be a prime example.

[karlhenning]

(* hurriedly hides sheaf of MS. paper *)

[Cato]

I'm generally easy either way (I prefer, for example, the chamber versions of Chopin's Piano Concerti), but I'd slay in cold blood the man (or woman) who dared to orchestrate Ravel's fine String Quartet. If ever a chamber work could hold its own in its original form, this must be a prime example.

As you have guessed, the sound of string quartets is not my favorite: but I mentioned the quartets above because these are the ones I really do enjoy!

(But I guess...I should not have mentioned...this...one?)        

Thanks to Edward for the news on the Scriabin Ninth Sonata orchestration!

[not edward]

BTW, if anyone wants to hear the Haas orchestration, let me know and I'll try to put it up on Rapidshare. Just don't expect good sound quality.

[Larry Rinkel]

My list: Borodin's String Quartets, Scriabin's Ninth Piano Sonata, Beethoven's last Piano Sonata Op. 111, the Ravel String Quartet, all of Bartok's String Quartets, Charles Ives' Concord Sonata.

The problem is that these works are so intricately and inherently tied to their original media that finding equivalent orchestral textures would entail major re-composition. Expanding a string quartet or sextet like V.N. is one thing, but I can't imagine how you might do the Ives. Schoenberg had the imagination and balls to re-conceive the Brahms orchestrally; same with Ravel and Mussorgsky. When Beethoven arranged one of his piano sonatas for quartet, he virtually re-conceived all the textures from beginning to end. It's not that I'm a purist about this, but so many transcriptions and orchestrations I've heard fall on their faces because the arrangers don't have the imagination to transform the music.

[greg]

BTW, if anyone wants to hear the Haas orchestration, let me know and I'll try to put it up on Rapidshare. Just don't expect good sound quality.

MEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

i'm a huge fan of the Scriabin 9th sonata, hearing it orchestrated would be sweet. (even though it might actually not be all that good, as you said, but still it'd be fun to listen to)

[Cato]

MEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

i'm a huge fan of the Scriabin 9th sonata, hearing it orchestrated would be sweet. (even though it might actually not be all that good, as you said, but still it'd be fun to listen to)

Amen!

Maybe "Greg" will be inspired to try his own version.   

[lukeottevanger]

...Charles Ives' Concord Sonata.

Another one that must at all costs be [Con]cordoned off. If ever a piece was intrinsically conceptually tied to its instrument and its single performer at all levels this is it. Which is why the flute solo at the end is so....transcendental.

[Cato]

I can agree with the above, even though I would still like to hear someone's attempt.

Are there works that might be improved, if they were orchestrated?  That are too small to contain the ideas they have, and need the larger elaboration?

Bruckner's String Quintet is often mentioned as a candidate.

[Mark]

Given that I much enjoy Finzi's orchestral outings, I wonder if perhaps his Elegy for piano and violin might sound rather lovely in a bigger, broader re-imagining - for strings alone, maybe?

[Larry Rinkel]

Are there works that might be improved, if they were orchestrated?  That are too small to contain the ideas they have, and need the larger elaboration?

I disagree with the premise, that somehow a larger complement of instruments would enrich the musical content. Wasn't it Weingartner who made a mess of the Hammerklavier? And the string orchestra versions of the Grosse Fuge and C# minor quartet are no improvements on the originals.

[The new erato]

The problem is that these works are so intricately and inherently tied to their original media that finding equivalent orchestral textures would entail major re-composition.

Yes

I disagree with the premise, that somehow a larger complement of instruments would enrich the musical content. Wasn't it Weingartner who made a mess of the Hammerklavier? And the string orchestra versions of the Grosse Fuge and C# minor quartet are no improvements on the originals.

And yes.

In some media, like the string quartet, content is so strongly connected to form and number of parts that (I feel) an reorchestration is impossible without fundamentally changing the nature of the work. And bigger is not always better, for me it always always is the other way round.

[greg]

Amen!

Maybe "Greg" will be inspired to try his own version.   

hmmmm maybe
but Scriabin's music is so pianistic that it would be pretty hard to make it work without changing a lot of it.

[Cato]

hmmmm maybe
but Scriabin's music is so pianistic that it would be pretty hard to make it work without changing a lot of it.

Aye, laddie!  That's the kern in this colonel: you have to be careful how you salute!  How much would you have to change/keep/elaborate?

Over on the Elgar board, people have pointed out problems with his larger works.  Could they be helped by reduction to chamber size?

[greg]

How much would you have to change/keep/elaborate?

probably quite a bit, mainly the fast pianistic figures... then again, maybe not as much as i think.

[BachQ]

The same goes for (again) Schoenberg's orchestration of the Brahms Piano Quartet: I like the orchestration better than the chamber original.

As to Brahms op. 25 (Piano Quartet), I also prefer Schoenberg's orchestration .........

As to Brahms op. 24 (Handel Variations), I prefer Brahms' original piano solo over Sir Edmund Rubbra's orchestration ........

[Montpellier]

I can't cope with people (even Ravel) who orchestrate Debussy's piano music.  There are few things that disgust me more than wispy strings gliding in with Clair de Lune or La Fille aux Cheveux de Lin.   These meddlers should be orcastrated.  Or something....

[lukeottevanger]

I can't cope with people (even Ravel) who orchestrate Debussy's piano music.  There are few things that disgust me more than wispy strings gliding in with Clair de Lune or La Fille aux Cheveux de Lin.   These meddlers should be orcastrated.  Or something....

Cuts both ways - Debussy's orchestration of Satie's Gymnopedies are about as misguided as these things get! (IMHO, of course)