Symphonies where the scherzo/minuet is best

[Archaic Torso of Apollo]

Martinu 4

This is a good one. I'm tempted to put forth Martinu 1 also.

Havergal Brian Symphony No.1 "Gothic" (third movement Vivace)

Yeah, that's a hair-raising experience.

Add:
Bruckner 3
Schumann 2
Beethoven 4
Arnold 4 (this floating, sinister, palindromic little scherzo might be my favorite symphonic movement by him)

[Brian]

Bruckner 3

Also a good call.

Purely my opinion here:
Bruckner 4, first version: the scherzo is the worst part
Bruckner 4, final version: the scherzo is the best part

[vandermolen]

Bruckner: Symphony 8
Martinu: Symphony 4
Rubbra: Symphony 5
Williamson: Symphony 1 'Elavimini'
Shostakovich: Symphony 8 (the movement with the prominent trumpet)

[amw]

The Queen Mab scherzo in Berlioz's very uneven Romeo and Juliette. But the Love Scene is at least its equal.

The Scene d'amour slightly edges out Queen Mab for me (and possibly for Berlioz himself, who apparently thought it was his finest achievement? according to someone? i wish i knew where i read that). But Queen Mab is one of the best in the repertoire, and certainly the best scherzo I routinely forget about only to rediscover to great delight.

As far as Mendelssohn's scherzi go, the only two cases I can think of where the scherzo is head and shoulders above the rest of the movements are the Piano Trio Op. 49 and the String Octet Op. 20. The other movements in those works are also superb, but perhaps not quite at the same level of immortality.

[Maestro267]

Does the finale of Bax 6 count? The main body of it is a Scherzo & Trio, but it has a slow introduction and epilogue on either side.

[Karl Henning]

Shostakovich: Symphony 8 (the movement with the prominent trumpet)

The galop . . . love that one.

[Brahmsian]

The galop . . . love that one.

ie. Shostakovich 8th - 3rd movement

What a great one that is indeed, Jeffrey and Karl! 

[vandermolen]

ie. Shostakovich 8th - 3rd movement

What a great one that is indeed, Jeffrey and Karl! 

Glad you think so. I once saw it used (along with the doom-laden opening of the slow movement) as accompanying music for a BBC School's History documentary about Stalin - it was very suitable I thought.

[(poco) Sforzando]

The Scene d'amour slightly edges out Queen Mab for me (and possibly for Berlioz himself, who apparently thought it was his finest achievement? according to someone? i wish i knew where i read that). But Queen Mab is one of the best in the repertoire, and certainly the best scherzo I routinely forget about only to rediscover to great delight.

As far as Mendelssohn's scherzi go, the only two cases I can think of where the scherzo is head and shoulders above the rest of the movements are the Piano Trio Op. 49 and the String Octet Op. 20. The other movements in those works are also superb, but perhaps not quite at the same level of immortality.

I more or less agree, but I would also add the scherzo to the Midsummer Night's Dream music, even though that's not really a symphony (though it nearly becomes one when the standard extracts are played together).

Toscanini used to perform the scherzo from op. 20 as a standalone piece arranged for string orchestra.

[amw]

Actually Brahms is the composer I think of where it comes to scherzi/minuets/scherzo substitutes—they're often highlights of the work and display a wider range of invention, character and interest than almost any other composer.

eg. Symphonies 3 & 4*, Piano Trio 1, Piano Concerto 2, Piano Quintet, Cello Sonata 1, String Quartets 1 & 3, Piano Quartet 2 and there are probably more that aren't coming to mind straightaway. All with completely different profiles, a good mix of characters, memorable ideas and often the best part of the piece (or close to it).

* I know everyone prefers the last movement of Symphony 4, but the scherzo (or whatever it is) is a real tour de force on its own

[Jo498]

I like the variety of Brahms 3rd (or sometimes 2nd) movements. But in some cases I am just not too fond of the actual movements, e.g. in the string quartets 1 and 3.
The 3rd in the 3rd really seems like a cliche of "Aimez-vous Brahms?" autumnal variety (and IIRC it was done to death in that movie) and the 3rd of the 4th seems like an ironic destruction both of its own scherzo/march material and of the melancholy mood of the rest of the symphony. I admire it to some extent (like some of the other movements mentioned) but I do not really love it.
My favorite orchestral Brahms "scherzo" by far is the one from the 2nd piano concerto.

[kyjo]

Symphonies where the scherzo is actually my favorite movement:

Shostakovich 10
Brahms 3 (if that counts)
Dvorak 6
Beethoven 5
Bernstein 1
Raff 5
Enescu 3
Borodin 3
Bruckner 2
Dopper 2
Ikuma Dan 4

Symphonies where the scherzo isn't necessarily my favorite movement but it really stands out:

Shostakovich 5 and 9
Bruckner 9
Dvorak 7 and 8
Arnold 2 and 5
Korngold
Walton 1
Elgar 1 and 2
RVW 6 and 9
Beethoven 7
Tchaikovsky Manfred
Casella 3
Prokofiev 3
Rachmaninoff 1 and 2
Melartin 3
Schmidt 4
Hanson 3
Sibelius 2 and 6
Braga Santos 3 and 4
Moroi 3

[Jo498]

My favorite scherzi are usually in works that are so good altogether that I really hesitate to single out the scherzo. E.g. Beethoven's 5th, 7th and 9th, Bruckner's 9th (I think in almost all other Bruckner symphonies the scherzo is my least favorite), Mahler's 9th... or in non-symphonies Beethoven's op. 59/1 or 127, Chopin's 2nd sonata.

I guess I'll stick with my candidates above: Mahler's 5th and Dvorak's 6th.
Maybe Tchaikovsky's 4th. But I have to check some of the ones mentioned by others I am not so familiar with.

[kyjo]

Dvorak's 6th.

Forgot about this one - totally agree. I've amended my list accordingly.

[André]

Dvorak 6 and Mahler 9: totally agree.

Bruckner 1 (I love the whole thing but the scherzo stands out).
Mendelssohn 3
Mozart 39
Dvorak 7
Shostakovich 5. I know: that adagio is the bee's knees. But for me the scherzo upstages it.
Elgar 2. This is one mean movement.

[Earthed]

Shostakovich 5. I know: that adagio is the bee's knees. But for me the scherzo upstages it.

Agree with this André - love that Scherzo!.

[Jo498]

Now that I think of it: Which one should count as scherzo in Mahler's 9th? The Laendler or the Rondo-Burleske? Probably the former but both have scherzo elements.

[amw]

I'm sticking with Dvořák 8 and Mahler 5 and I guess should add:

Ives 4 ("Comedy")
Robert Simpson 9 (although the scherzo isn't a separate movement, but it's tracked as one in the box set, so >.>)
Karl Amadeus Hartmann 4 (for string orchestra)
Bruckner 1, 0 & 4 (1878/80 version)

[Jaakko Keskinen]

Brahms 4 (yes, better than the finale passacaglia  )

I know a symphony where scherzo is the worst movement - Bruckner 7. And the previous slow movement was coincidentally the greatest he ever composed, IMHO.

[André]

Now that I think of it: Which one should count as scherzo in Mahler's 9th? The Laendler or the Rondo-Burleske? Probably the former but both have scherzo elements.

I was thinking the 3rd movement.