Music and struggling

[Florestan]

The great majority of people don't actually put a CD on, sit in an armchair and just listen to it while having a drink. Most people fill that time with other activities.

True. I do that as well. But if the music is good / interesting enough it will by itself ask for full attention. The latest such experience I had was with Manuel Blasco de Nebra's keyboard sonatas: I thought they'd make for a nice sonic wallpaper while browsing GMG but very soon I found myself doing nothing but listening in awe. And even if such extreme attention-calling does not usually occur, a musical idea, a twist of a phrase, an appealing tune, an unexpected change of rhythm or something else may spark my interest and the desire to hear that music again and in a more focused manner. I'm sure this is not only my experience but a very common one among classical music lovers. The alternative is to wait until there is time and mood and opportunity to listen to music at home or at work as if one were in a concert hall, that is, to delay such listening perhaps indefinitely.

[Cato]

'

You didn't read that aphorism by Nietzsche it seems. Nietzsche writes some very sensible and useful things. Why not appreciate that?? Why not see if you can follow him, and maybe learn from it? You can have some hesitations, but you must take some things he writes with a grain of salt. Otherwise, you only try to put him of a pedestal. That's not very respectful for the great thinker he was!

Greetings!  Your original quotation is not an aphorism.  It is highly questionable that Nietzsche was a "great" thinker: he undoubtedly had a great influence later in the 19th and early 20th century, and that influence was not necessarily positive.  I found him interesting, but in the end his "philosophy" rests on contradicting earlier philosophers, and then itself becomes at times contradictory, at times irrational, and often pontificating.

One hates to disagree with Stravinsky's skepticism of technology's influence on Music, but Florestan's observations about the positive effects of technology are on target.  I gasp in dismay at the thought of using piano reductions to enjoy a Beethoven symphony, instead of cranking up my stereo system with the Cleveland Orchestra!

[Karl Henning]

Greetings!  Your original quotation is not an aphorism.  It is highly questionable that Nietzsche was a "great" thinker: he undoubtedly had a great influence later in the 19th and early 20th century, and that influence was not necessarily positive.  I found him interesting, but in the end his "philosophy" rests on contradicting earlier philosophers, and then itself becomes at times contradictory, at times irrational, and often pontificating.

One hates to disagree with Stravinsky's skepticism of technology's influence on Music, but Florestan's observations about the positive effects of technology are on target.  I gasp in dismay at the thought of using piano reductions to enjoy a Beethoven symphony, instead of cranking up my stereo system with the Cleveland Orchestra!

The really problematic passive listening, I think (and if this were what Игорь Фëдорович had in view, it is not clear) is, not Andrei's example of deliberate (and relaxed) listening to a recording, but the environmental blanket-broadcasting of a sonic backdrop.  With music everywhere, one is at risk of growing numb to it.  Of course, individuals of intelligence and taste are much less at any like risk 

[Cato]

The really problematic passive listening, I think (and if this were what Игорь Фëдорович had in view, it is not clear) is, not Andrei's example of deliberate (and relaxed) listening to a recording, but the environmental blanket-broadcasting of a sonic backdrop.  With music everywhere, one is at risk of growing numb to it.  Of course, individuals of intelligence and taste are much less at any like risk 

I suspect that such blanketing is probably what Stravinsky feared. ( I recall an interview with Honegger who complained of radios everywhere with accordion music driving him batty! )

"Elevator music" and ubiquitous "rock music" in stores are the curses of our age.  For some reason, Kroger's (a grocery store chain here in Ohio) uses bad saxophone "jazz" in their stores.  Maybe it's cheap.

[ComposerOfAvantGarde]

I can't drink and listen to music. Too much of a struggle.

[North Star]

For some reason, Kroger's (a grocery store chain here in Ohio) uses bad saxophone "jazz" in their stores.  Maybe it's cheap.

I'm reasonably sure that the price of playing music in grocery stores is a smaller factor than how it affects shopping behaviour.

I can't drink and listen to music. Too much of a struggle.

Try using a straw.  0:)

[Cato]

I'm reasonably sure that the price of playing music in grocery stores is a smaller factor than how it affects shopping behaviour.

Heh-heh!  In my case, the "bad saxophone jazz" makes me want to leave faster!   

I can't drink and listen to music. Too much of a struggle.

  Depending on the composer, his music might drive you to drink!   

[Karl Henning]

I can't listen to Stockhausen anymore.  The hangovers the next day are post-nuclear.

[Henk]

Greetings!  Your original quotation is not an aphorism.  It is highly questionable that Nietzsche was a "great" thinker: he undoubtedly had a great influence later in the 19th and early 20th century, and that influence was not necessarily positive.  I found him interesting, but in the end his "philosophy" rests on contradicting earlier philosophers, and then itself becomes at times contradictory, at times irrational, and often pontificating.

One hates to disagree with Stravinsky's skepticism of technology's influence on Music, but Florestan's observations about the positive effects of technology are on target.  I gasp in dismay at the thought of using piano reductions to enjoy a Beethoven symphony, instead of cranking up my stereo system with the Cleveland Orchestra!

Do you think you are an authority to say these kind of things? In fact, you are rather a nasty midget. Once more, I hate you.

[Henk]

Yeah, that must be it - people should just accept it when you say they are disgusting, otherwise they are bullies!

You can only back up each other.

[Karl Henning]

In fact, you are rather a nasty midget. Once more, I hate you.

You realize that this only reflects poorly on yourself?

Your hatred touches us not.

[North Star]

Do you think you are an authority to say these kind of things? In fact, you are rather a nasty midget. Once more, I hate you.

Lay off the Nietzsche!

[Henk]

Please take your medication.

and that influence was not necessarily positive.

What do think Cato is referring to.. He blames Nietzsche for causing the Holocaust?

[Henk]

You realize that this only reflects poorly on yourself?

Your hatred touches us not.

Yeah you are a bullying robot! Now it's finally clear to me..

[North Star]

What do think Cato is referring to.. He blames Nietzsche for causing the Holocaust?

[Karl Henning]

Yeah you are a bullying robot! Now it's finally clear to me..

You will forgive my suggesting that, as far as our several characters are concerned, nothing is clear to you.

[Brian]

relm1, that Stravinsky quote has a whole lot going on, and I decided to break it down...

"The propagation of music by mechanical means and the broadcasting of music - that represent formidable scientific conquests, which are very likely to spread even more - merit close examination as for their importance and their effects in the domain of music.

The first thought that occurs to me is that, at the time Stravinsky wrote this (1935), "mechanical means" did constrict music in many ways: poor sound quality for one thing, and short record playing times necessitating cuts.

In the past, someone like Johann-Sebastian Bach had to walk ten leagues in order to hear Buxtehude perform his works. Today, any inhabitant of any country simply has to either turn a knob or play a record in order to listen to the piece of his choice. Well! It is in this very incredible easiness, in this very lack of effort that lies the vice of that so-called progress.

There is, of course, an element of truth here: I can pull up Beethoven and listen right now; not so in 1818. But there is also an element of "in my day we walked to school in the snow uphill both ways". For example, I doubt that any home listener in the 1700s, other than say Charles Burney, developed a really deep appreciation of any orchestral work - the way that we'd develop an appreciation today, with the aid of recordings.

In music, more than in any other branch of art, comprehension is only given to those who actively contribute to it.

I don't think that "comprehension" and active listening are historically very important, however. When Stravinsky was writing, I'd argue that those concepts were in fact relatively new! Certainly, "comprehension" was not in mind for French court composers writing divertimenti, or Vivaldi composing for his school charges. And moreover, up through the mid-1800s, audience-goers were not the listeners Stravinsky would have desired: churchgoers who were there for the worship, churchgoers who were there resentfully because they were required to attend, socialites noisily gossiping and seducing each other. I think it's an Austen novel where one of the girls complains that her trip to the opera was a failure, because she had to listen to the music!

Neither do they absolutely need to make music themselves and to waste time studying an instrument in order to know the musical literature.

THIS is true - not playing an instrument is something where I feel like I'm missing out, a lot. And certainly a major change over the past 100 years.

In the near future, such disorganized overfeeding is more than likely to make listeners lose their hunger and their liking for music. Indeed, there will always be some exceptions - some people within the hoard will be able to select what they like. However, concerning the masses, one has all the reasons to fear that instead of generating love for and understanding of music, the modern means involved in spreading music will lead absolutely to opposite results; it is to say, they will lead to indifference, to the inability to recognize them, to be guided by them, and to have any reaction of some value." Igor Stravinsky - "Chronicles of My Life" - 1935

This is a subject where we can have a pretty interesting discussion. People do still, of course, care a lot about good music. But certainly in pop music, standards have plummeted: consistent beats, monotonous dynamic levels, three Swedish guys writing every single pop song. And the recording quality is abysmal. Nevertheless, between Stravinsky's time and Katy Perry's, we got the Beatles, the Stones, John Coltrane, Nina Simone...eh, you get the idea.

Also, I don't think "pop music" was ever something that really required active listening and deep musical knowledge. If they were playing music at a tavern in 1840, you probably got up to dance to it.

[Karl Henning]

Also, I don't think "pop music" was ever something that really required active listening and deep musical knowledge. If they were playing music at a tavern in 1840, you probably got up to dance to it.

Or sang along.

[Henk]

I really could kill Cato. Leaving the Holocaust aside (though I have no idea what he is referring too otherwise), his remarks are so disrespectful, malicious and stupid. And then to realize he thinks even high of himself.

[Cato]

Do you think you are an authority to say these kind of things?

As a classicist who has read philosophers in Latin and Ancient Greek, and as someone who has studied several books by Nietzsche in the original German, and as a person with above-average intelligence, yes, I am an authority!   0:)

If you find value in Nietzsche, fine.  Yet keep in mind that he was possessed by an out-of-control ego, and as such needs to be understood delicately, the way one understands a slightly dotty great-uncle.  Fascinating stories and ideas, Uncle Fred, but do they convey valid truths about the human experience?