Representative composers of the Western hemisphere

[Mirror Image]

Really really?

A word of warning: don't get sucked into James' delusional world where all of the animals sing in unison in praise of he, the Almighty James!

[ComposerOfAvantGarde]

'Success' is an interesting thing to think about though.

I am young and naïve and I don't understand the world we live in very well, but here are my thoughts for older people here to read. You may have thought similarly when you were younger as well before you matured into different beliefs...but here are my thoughts anyway.

For some people (and I certainly do hope these people are rare), the truly successful people in the world of music are the ones 'everyone' knows and loves, the old great composers and the musicians who record them. Success is fame, money.

I think a successful composer is someone who is able to create and individual sound, philosophy and approach to making music, but also has the integrity to review and critique their own work as they gain knowledge over time.

I asked my dad earlier what makes a successful composer in his mind and 'income' was the first thing he said before listing a whole lot of other things, so maybe this way of thinking will develop in me over time..........

[some guy]

I asked my dad earlier what makes a successful composer in his mind and 'income' was the first thing he said before listing a whole lot of other things, so maybe this way of thinking will develop in me over time..........

I sincerely hope not.

I probably have more years than your dad, too.

That is, I do not believe that "age" means anything. Certainly numbers don't. I have 63 of those year things. What does that mean? Exactly nothing.

[Florestan]

Hate to say it, but Elliott Carter was a massive failure, his music speaks to virtually no one. It can be easily dismissed and will be forgotten for the most part. No one really knows who he is, or cares. The stuff just isn't that musical either, btw. Try this simple test, walk down virtually any street in the U.S. and ask someone at random if they know him, and if so .. ask them to name a piece and  go even further and ask them to hum or whistle some of it, any of it.

Simply not true (and YES, I've actually tried it!). It won't take long to eventually run into someone who knows it. AND the stuff is packed with so much memorable melody that the average person can at least take that with them. Something to SING!

By this token, your beloved Stockhausen is a pathetic failure too. 

[ComposerOfAvantGarde]

By this token, your beloved Stockhausen is a pathetic failure too. 

Unfortunately he is right with that logic. I hum Klavierstück XI all the time as does 99 other people I know.

[Karl Henning]

Really really?

As a participant in intelligent discussion of new music, I hate to say it, but James is a massive failure.

[vandermolen]

Roy Harris, Copland?

[Daverz]

Gershwin and Ives for the U.S., Revueltas for Mexico, and Villa-Lobos for South America.

[PaulR]

Hate to say it, but Elliott Carter was a massive failure, his music speaks to virtually no one. It can be easily dismissed and will be forgotten for the most part. No one really knows who he is, or cares. The stuff just isn't that musical either, btw. Try this simple test, walk down virtually any street in the U.S. and ask someone at random if they know him, and if so .. ask them to name a piece and  go even further and ask them to hum or whistle some of it, any of it.

I can imagine you'd say similar things about Bach soon after he died were you alive then.

(BTW, it must be nice to be so clairvoyant about the future in regards whose music will be remembered and whose forgotten.)

[jochanaan]

I really like Ives, but I'm not sure I'd call him 'representative'....

Oh, he represents all right! As some of my street friends say. 

represent: verb. Go and be a good example to the others of your group or in your position.

In other words, being "representative" does not mean that a composer represents.

Some composers from the Americas who do represent (in no particular order):

George Gershwin
Howard Hanson
Aaron Copland
Alan Hovhaness
Heitor Villa-Lobos
Alberto Ginastera
Steve Reich
Peter Schickele (as P.D.Q. Bach)
Elliott Carter (man, did he represent, for 103 years!)
Conlon Nancarrow
George Antheil
and the aforementioned
Charles Ives

[kishnevi]

Hate to say it, but Elliott Carter was a massive failure, his music speaks to virtually no one. It can be easily dismissed and will be forgotten for the most part. No one really knows who he is, or cares. The stuff just isn't that musical either, btw. Try this simple test, walk down virtually any street in the U.S. and ask someone at random if they know him, and if so .. ask them to name a piece and  go even further and ask them to hum or whistle some of it, any of it.

By that test, we should all be worshipping at the shrine of Taylor Swift.

(Mind you, I consider Ms. Swift to have produced some very nice music....)

[ComposerOfAvantGarde]

I can imagine you'd say similar things about Bach soon after he died were you alive then.

(BTW, it must be nice to be so clairvoyant about the future in regards whose music will be remembered and whose forgotten.)

If it weren't for a small number of devotees, Bach probably would be about as famous now as Myslivecek is today.

[Monsieur Croche]

A reflection of the modern zeitgeist of course. Art does reflect the times and the people of it to a degree, although the truly great stuff (eg. J.S. Bach) does tend to transcend time and context, continually gathering and growing in meaning, stature and resonance.

All of the composers mentioned in this thread thus far are huge failures IMO. The older guys say much more musically and in-turn speak to a larger group of people too.

Apollo weeps....

[Florestan]

If it weren't for a small number of devotees, Bach probably would be about as famous now as Myslivecek is today.

True. And furthermore: many hardcore Bach devotees are only too eager to bash Romanticism, yet (1) it is the Romantic Mendelssohn who is to be credited with the beginning of Bach´s revival , and (2) it is the Romantic cult of atemporal geniuses which is to be credited as the inspiration behind the careful and thorough unearthing and cataloguing of Bach´s works.

[Monsieur Croche]

'Success' is an interesting thing to think about though.

I am young and naïve and I don't understand the world we live in very well, but here are my thoughts for older people here to read. You may have thought similarly when you were younger as well before you matured into different beliefs...but here are my thoughts anyway.

For some people (and I certainly do hope these people are rare), the truly successful people in the world of music are the ones 'everyone' knows and loves, the old great composers and the musicians who record them. Success is fame, money.

I think a successful composer is someone who is able to create and individual sound, philosophy and approach to making music, but also has the integrity to review and critique their own work as they gain knowledge over time.

I asked my dad earlier what makes a successful composer in his mind and 'income' was the first thing he said before listing a whole lot of other things, so maybe this way of thinking will develop in me over time..........

Recommending you read: Joseph Heller ~ Picture This.
Read it several times over a few months.
Then, hand it to your father, tell him you've read it several times, ask him to read it "because I would like to know what you think about it."

I'll leave all that there without any further 'splainin.'

Best regards.

[Monsieur Croche]

True. And furthermore: many hardcore Bach devotees are only too eager to bash Romanticism, yet (1) it is the Romantic Mendelssohn who is to be credited with the beginning of Bach´s revival , and (2) it is the Romantic cult of atemporal geniuses which is to be credited as the inspiration behind the careful and thorough unearthing and cataloging of Bach´s works.

I see no logic or real connection that gratitude toward 'The Romantics,' 'Romanticism,' or 'The Romantic Ethos or Era,' for the Bach revival and cataloging of his works makes any real sense.

That is like trying to solicit a warm glow of gratitude "to Modernism and the modernists" because modernist Nadia Boulanger was responsible for bringing Monteverdi back into public awareness in the twentieth century 

[Florestan]

I see no logic or real connection that gratitude toward 'The Romantics,' 'Romanticism,' or 'The Romantic Ethos or Era,' for the Bach revival and cataloging of his works makes any real sense.

That is like trying to solicit a warm glow of gratitude "to Modernism and the modernists" because modernist Nadia Boulanger was responsible for bringing Monteverdi back into public awareness in the twentieth century 

I like what you attempted to do here.  It failed, but nice try.

[ComposerOfAvantGarde]

I like what you attempted to do here.  It failed, but nice try.

Um, I think the most important thing he's saying here is this: it doesn't actually matter when these early music revivers live, the important fact is that wonderful repertoire is being played no matter who revived it or when it was revived.

[Florestan]

Um, I think the most important thing he's saying here is this: it doesn't actually matter when these early music revivers live, the important fact is that wonderful repertoire is being played no matter who revived it or when it was revived.

With this I agree, but my point was that no revival takes place in a vacuum, out of the blue sky: someone wake up in the morning and say "Hey, it would be nice to revive the music of X!". Behind every revival there is an underlying philosophy and aesthetics and since these are inextricably linked to their time, someone´s living exactly in the time he lived does have an influence on his ideas and actions, including whose music to wipe the dust off.

[Hilltroll73(Ukko)]

I sincerely hope not.

I probably have more years than your dad, too.

That is, I do not believe that "age" means anything. Certainly numbers don't. I have 63 of those year things. What does that mean? Exactly nothing.

Yeah, s'right. What seems like an accumulation of knowledge as we age is probably really an accumulation of personal opinions - often reinforced by Dubious Data.

I have to echo the question "Representative of what?"