What is the 'composer's intention?'

[Monsieur Croche]

His essay [Huxley's] Music at Night is already a classic. You can read it here: https://danassays.wordpress.com/collected-essays-by-aldous-huxley/aldous-huxley-essays-music-at-night/

On the critic, or anyone, naming 'the meaning' of a work of music....

"The limits of criticism are very quickly reached. When he has said "in his own words" as much, or rather as little, as "own words" can say, the critic can only refer his readers to the original work of art: let them go and see for themselves. Those who overstep the limit are either rather stupid, vain people, who love their "own words" and imagine that they can say in them more than "own words" are able in the nature of things to express. Or else they are intelligent people who happen to be philosophers or literary artists and who find it convenient to make the criticism of other men's work a jumping off place for their own creativity.

As much as Huxley says in his essay, the pith of what is under discussion and pertinent to the OP is here:

"What is true of painting is equally true of music. Music "says" things about the world, but in specifically musical terms. Any attempt to reproduce these musical statements "in our own words" is necessarily doomed to failure. We cannot isolate the truth contained in a piece of music; for it is a beauty-truth and inseparable from its partner. The best we can do is to indicate in the most general terms the nature of the musical beauty-truth under consideration and to refer curious truth-seekers to the original.

i.e. You just can not 'name' the content of a piece of music, and by extension, neither, really, can the composer. This ends up, full circle, a return to being left with the music itself as the only real statement of 'what it is about.'

[Madiel]

Then close the forum.

[Monsieur Croche]

 

Then close the forum.

Well, maybe just this thread....

[Florestan]

Re: Aldous Huxley

So, there is at least one literary man who put together two words about music without one of them being wrong. Ergo Stravinsky´s bon mot is disproved.

[ComposerOfAvantGarde]

Then close the forum.

Well...that escalated quickly!

[Florestan]

Then close the forum.

I am sure this in tongue-in-cheek, but it´s not that far off the mark actually. If the only way to talk about music is to remain silent and let the music speak for itself then this forum is essentially useless.

[ComposerOfAvantGarde]

I am sure this in tongue-in-cheek, but it´s not that far off the mark actually. If the only way to talk about music is to remain silent and let the music speak for itself then this forum is essentially useless.

Well I kind of like to read what people write about music.....its enlightening! It would be such a shame to lose this place....I seem to be either hated or banned on other parts of the Internet's classical music scene.

[(poco) Sforzando]

Then close the forum.

Monsieur Croche being one of our more [garrulous/voluble/verbose] posters, he is the last person I could imagine wanting to close the forum.

[Madiel]

I am sure this in tongue-in-cheek, but it´s not that far off the mark actually. If the only way to talk about music is to remain silent and let the music speak for itself then this forum is essentially useless.

Well, yes, this is what I find bemusing. We're getting all these "conclusive" statements about the futility of talking about music... and the statements are in words.

Of course, a fair amount of stuff never rises above the level of "I like this" or "I don't like this", but at its heart this forum is people talking about music. Sometimes people are describing their reaction to music, but sometimes they're actually describing the music itself.

And we might as well close down all the review sites while we're at it. Heavens, on pop music sites, the reviewers are normally trying to describe new music, not just new performances.

Monsieur Croche being one of our more [garrulous/voluble/verbose] posters, he is the last person I could imagine wanting to close the forum.

The irony of a verbose poster declaring how words weren't up to the task wasn't lost on me.

[Florestan]

The irony of a verbose poster declaring how words weren't up to the task wasn't lost on me.

[Karl Henning]

Whoa

[Karl Henning]

Whoa

(Not a serious remark.)

[some guy]

Well, yes, this is what I find bemusing. We're getting all these "conclusive" statements about the futility of talking about music... and the statements are in words.

Um, we are getting nothing of the sort.

What we are getting is an attempt to distinguish between futile statements and useful ones.

Odd how that particular useful distinction is so roundly excoriated.

The irony of a verbose poster declaring how words weren't up to the task wasn't lost on me.

Words are up to some tasks and not up to other. Wisdom is being able to distinguish between the tasks language is up to and the ones it is not. As Mahler said, "I know, for my part, that as long as I am able to express my experience in words, I would never do so in music. My need to express myself musically, symphonically, begins only in the realm of obscure feelings, at the gate leading to the 'other world', where things are no longer destroyed by time and space."

Otherwise, at its most neutral, verbosity is an indication of amount, only. At its least neutral, its an insult. But even there, it's still only indicating amount, not the quality or the usefulness of the amount, nor--most importantly--of to what extent the words used are necessary for making whatever point is being made.

This isn't all that difficult a concept, is it?

[Florestan]

Mahler said, "I know, for my part, that as long as I am able to express my experience in words, I would never do so in music. My need to express myself musically, symphonically, begins only in the realm of obscure feelings, at the gate leading to the 'other world', where things are no longer destroyed by time and space."

While you´re at it, you might as well ponder these words of Anton Webern:

Tell me, can one at all denote thinking and feeling as things entirely separable? I cannot imagine a sublime intellect without the ardor of emotion. --- letter to Arnold Schoenberg

Except for the violin pieces and a few of my orchestra pieces, all of my works from the Passacaglia on relate to the death of my mother. --- letter to Alban Berg

[Monsieur Croche]

(Not a serious remark.)

I was just about to say, whoa, if people can't say what they want, well, that was the main point of those who recommended this forum to me... other than pointed rudeness, people can say what they want.

The irony of being verbose to plow through the density and resistance of the rest of the verbosity, to only conclude 'music can't say anything, ergo words can not name what it is saying' isn't lost on me, either, lol. [I counter-balance that by composing very few notes. -- That is a wholesale rationale, lol.]

Besides, it seems to be the age of first-world problem monumental butthurt, and infantile though that is, we all have to learn to deal with it or how to ignore it.

[ComposerOfAvantGarde]

Music...can....say....anything.

Anything you want it to mean, any meaning you get out of it, it's all legit and can be expressed in words.

However, this shows the power of the human mind and human emotion. Music without anyone to interpret meaning from it is useless.

[Madiel]

Words are up to some tasks and not up to other. Wisdom is being able to distinguish between the tasks language is up to and the ones it is not.

This isn't all that difficult a concept, is it?

No. And this is a music forum. All other tasks besides talking about music aren't relevant to this forum. That isn't a difficult concept either.

While we're throwing quotes around, one of my favourites is "words are only pictures of ideas on paper".

[Uhor]

Exploit material, discover procedures, reveal new structures, attain musicality.

[Monsieur Croche]

Ahhhh, numbers, the letters of mathzzzzz. 

[ComposerOfAvantGarde]

Exploit material, discover procedures, reveal new structures, attain musicality.

Welcome, O new member, your wisdom shall enlighten us all and bring this forum to new heights unforeseen on any Internet forum as of yet!