Handel, Concerti Grossi, esp. Op. 6

Octave · June 28, 2013, 12:01:28 AM

Quote from: Mandryka on June 28, 2011, 09:33:55 AM
I've been playing Scherchen a lot since this thread was started I would say that this is very very great music making.

Does Mandryka or anyone have a handy link to the most-available edition of the Scherchen? I see three (?) volumes from MCA with red covers, but those seem to be basically unavailable. This might simply need to be found by 'other means'.

Thanks for the suggestions, everyone. I mostly just know the Martin Gester (BIS), Marriner (Decca), and Pinnock (Archiv), each quite different from the next. Looking forward to trying some more out.

Mandryka · June 28, 2013, 03:17:08 AM

Frank Forman made his own (noisy but truthful) transfers of all 12 concertos and published the links on rmcr. I have the CDs for 1 through 8, but I've never found the CD of 9 - 12. Let me know if you find the third Cd anywhere.

I loaded 1 through 8 on symphonyshare, I think the link still works. Someone declicked Forman's 9 through 12 and put a link on symphonyshare. That's the best one to take if you can't find the CD, it's the one I use. Let me know if you have any problems.

While we're mentioning Scherchen and Forman, I took his transfer of the 1953 mono Mozart requiem recently. Wonderful, better than Scherchen's stereo record, which is more easy to find. It would be good if someone with the knowhow would clean it up a bit.

Such a variable conductor in baroque, this Scherchen. I still feel the Handel op 6 performances are a bit special. Yet recenltly I listened to both sets of Brandenburgs he made and thought they were not very interesting at all. You would think that anyone who can play op 6 could make something interesting out of The Brandenburgs, but no.

Mandryka · June 30, 2013, 05:22:43 AM

Quote from: Octave on June 28, 2013, 12:01:28 AM
Does Mandryka or anyone have a handy link to the most-available edition of the Scherchen? I see three (?) volumes from MCA with red covers, but those seem to be basically unavailable. This might simply need to be found by 'other means'.

Thanks for the suggestions, everyone. I mostly just know the Martin Gester (BIS), Marriner (Decca), and Pinnock (Archiv), each quite different from the next. Looking forward to trying some more out.

I just noticed that you can download them from Google play. That solves my problem about 9 through 12

Daverz · September 07, 2013, 08:28:45 PM

I have a set that I got...somewhere on the internets, with "Alexander Schneider and His Chamber Orchestra" (all the players are listed). This was issued as an RCA shaded dog, so this is someones Lp rip. I haven't seen a CD issue. I love the old style here.

bigshot · September 08, 2013, 09:37:06 AM

Xenophanes · September 11, 2013, 05:14:05 PM

Quote from: val on June 25, 2013, 11:25:54 PM
For the elegance and also the lyricism in the slow movements, I still prefer the version of Hogwood with the Händel & Haydn Society.

That's the one I ended up getting, partly because of availability and partly because the Amazon sound samples seemed smoother than Manze, which also seems very well done.

[asin]B000BD9NQI[/asin]

Jo498 · August 01, 2014, 01:13:31 PM

Quote from: Mandryka on June 28, 2013, 03:17:08 AM
Frank Forman made his own (noisy but truthful) transfers of all 12 concertos and published the links on rmcr. I have the CDs for 1 through 8, but I've never found the CD of 9 - 12. Let me know if you find the third Cd anywhere.

The three discs were available on "Millenium Classics" in the late '90ties(?), but they are hard to find and used copies are often outrageously priced (I have two, but had to rely on a friend's copy for 9-12).

Quote
While we're mentioning Scherchen and Forman, I took his transfer of the 1953 mono Mozart requiem recently. Wonderful, better than Scherchen's stereo record, which is more easy to find. It would be good if someone with the knowhow would clean it up a bit.

Wasn't the mono Requiem on CD on Tahra? I have the stereo and like it quite a bit, although the choir is not very good and it has some Scherchen weirdness (extremely slow Introitus).

Quote
Such a variable conductor in baroque, this Scherchen. I still feel the Handel op 6 performances are a bit special. Yet recenltly I listened to both sets of Brandenburgs he made and thought they were not very interesting at all. You would think that anyone who can play op 6 could make something interesting out of The Brandenburgs, but no.

I agree.
The Brandenburgs (I am only aware of the set with Vienna musicians, also on Millenium) are rather boring, plodding, without the original touches and extreme contrasts he brings to op.6. The Water Music is also rather disappointing, but op.6 is worth seeking out. The Vivaldi was probably quite good back then (better than the Brandenburgs, IIRC), but has been superseded by more recent recordings. What I heard of the Messiah (not sure which, it was an LP transfer) I found too slow and excentric.

I have not heard one of Scherchen's b minor masses, but for me his prime baroque recordings that are still quite impressive and rather unique despite some flaws are the Art of the Fugue (I only know the Vienna stereo), the St Matthew (the later St John is not as special, although worthwhile, but probably introuvable) and Handel's op.6.

prémont · August 02, 2014, 03:15:38 AM

Quote from: Jo498 on August 01, 2014, 01:13:31 PM
The Brandenburgs (I am only aware of the set with Vienna musicians, also on Millenium) are rather boring, plodding, without the original touches and extreme contrasts he brings to op.6.

I think the disappointing soloists (and not Scherchen) are the real problem. E.g. even Jörg Schäftlein plays out of tune in the middle movement of BWV 1047. And George Malcolm and Adolf Scherbaum did much better elsewhere. Or the problem may have been shortage of rehearsal time.

Mandryka · August 02, 2014, 05:57:27 AM

It was probably a silly comment, the one I made before, because Bach's writing seems so different from Handel's now, no reason to think that someone who was sympathetic in the op 6 would necessarily find much to resound with in the Brandenburgs.

As far as I know Scherchen's first Mozart requiem never left LP format commercially. I listened to both a few months ago and I still think that the mono is the better performance. That's not a recommendation, you understand

If you want me to upload it for you let me know.

Other Scherchen recordings you may enjoy are Haydn's Seven Words, the Mozart and Haydn symphonies he recorded for Ultraphon, which were released on Tara. And some of the Mahler - Mahler 3 and Kindertotenlieder. And possibly some Beethoven -- the overtures maybe, and one of the many Eroicas. It's a shame that the Moses und Aaron from Rome has nasty sound. I don't know if there are other recorded performances.

Jo498 · February 05, 2016, 05:25:20 AM

My favorites for op.6 are the somewhat controversial Harnoncourt recordings. He has the biggest contrasts in mood (and also sound, concertino is really differentiated from (fairly large) tutti, although per headphones the concertino players seem to be located strangely on the side, it never bothered me with speakers), the most "speaking" and evocative articulation/phrasing of all I have heard. There are (very) few strange tempi and other oddities, but whenever I compared modern recordings, his were the most varied and overall I liked them the best. (Scherchen is probably too different to be plausibly compared to such newer HIP recordings but he is also going for strong/stark contrasts.)

Manze is the most chamber-like I know, brilliant and transparent, but also somewhat too fast and efficient, not varied enough.

I also still like Hogwood quite a bit, although this is pretty much mainstream British (despite American ensemble) HIP playing, but a little more pomp in certain places and not quite so chamber-like.

My newest is the de Vriend which I initially found slightly disappointing as it had received some high praise: too fast and cool, they miss the mellow rustic character of the polonaise in #3 quite thorougly, too often going for superficial excitement by hectically strumming theorbes (or whatever) in the continuo etc. But I like it somewhat better after another listening would have to listen again to say more about it.

The most elegant and also quite enjoyable is the older (Decca) Marriner.

Pommer's was mentioned above and it is not uninteresting (and was probably very original in 84 or whenever it came out). But in the end it feels to me like an incoherent mix of some rather daring "HIP" manners and very mellow sounding modern instruments rather distantly recorded (and a tiny tinkling harpsichord or two) In some passages/movements his players embellish more lavishly than most HIP recordings I have heard and he does also some odd things with rhythms (notes inegales or so) at some places that I have never heard done this way elsewhere.

In op.3 my favorite is Hogwood, mainly for two (rather personal reasons): oboe in the 3rd concerto (far preferable to flute) and a reconstruction of a plausible 6th concerto (instead of the editor's mess of two unrelated movements). I think Goodman also has that reconstruction but I have not heard his.
Harnoncourt's is less sucessful in op.3 (I also recall the sound/playing as somewhat scratchy, but I don't know it so well because I never was too fond of it, I bet he is still quite interesting in some of them).
Except for the odd mix of flute and recorder (or only recorder?) in the 3rd concerto, Minkowski has an exciting and contrastful op.3
Marriner is again very beautiful for an "older" chamber recording (also stunning recorded sound for 1960s, I think).