A frustration

[(poco) Sforzando]

It's also worth pointing out that composers like George Lloyd and Havergal Brian are actually within the window of opportunity for catching on with audiences - especially in America, where there's a quite significant "lag time". In 2008, I attended a Houston concert where Janacek's Sinfonietta was played. The conductor gave a quick talk about how excited he was to perform the piece, which was a true rarity in the USA - he wasn't sure if it had ever been performed in Texas.

Just eight years later, Janacek is becoming part of the regular repertoire. Even more amazingly, in 2016 alone Texas will see both its major orchestras play Lutoslawski's Concerto for Orchestra. Martinu, Szymanowski (which Emanuel Ax brought to the part-time Austin Symphony), and Benjamin Britten are gaining widespread acceptance stateside too. It took us a heck of a lot longer than it took Europe, true, so Maestro might be right that if Lloyd was going to catch on, he'd have caught on by now. But these things do take time.

(For what it's worth, I see no reason for regular concertizing of Havergal Brian, aside from the odd overture and somebody on earth doing the Gothic every ten years, though there are a couple really nice Lloyd symphonies that would pleasantly surprise some of the USA's ultra-conservative season subscribers.)

First, what are your "couple really nice Lloyd symphonies"?

Second, the notion that the US is necessarily ultra-conservative (when compared to, say, Florestan's listing of concerts from Norway) seems to me dubious, as it fails to take economics into account. State funding for the arts is accepted in Europe to a degree unheard-of here, and concert promoters can scarcely be blamed for avoiding the risk of an expensively produced concert that draws only a small audience. Nor can the audience itself necessarily be blamed when ticket prices are astronomical and travel to and from a hall is time-consuming and expensive in itself. Be that as it may, the situation today seems to me vastly improved over the days when (IIRC) Barbirolli was dissuaded by the powerful impresario Arthur Judson from programming Berlioz's Fantastique with the New York Philharmonic, and had to substitute Beethoven's Pastoral. (I thought this anecdote was retold by Lebrecht, who is not always reliable, but I can't find it. Nonetheless, even se non è vero, è ben trovato.)

[Karl Henning]

[...] Lebrecht, who is not always reliable [....]

Just wanted to note that I appreciate the elegant understatement here.

[(poco) Sforzando]

Just wanted to note that I appreciate the elegant understatement here.

I aim to please.

[Florestan]

Florestan's listing of concerts from Norway

I posted them not to make any comparison but because The New Erato, who thinks "people" want only the same old stuff, is Norwegian. I should have quoted his own post, actually, but I clicked the wrong button. 

[The new erato]

Well, as a regular concertgoer in Bergen, I know very well which of these concerts plays to a full house, and which only to a 50% full house.

[Florestan]

Well, as a regular concertgoer in Bergen, I know very well which of these concerts plays to a full house, and which only to a 50% full house.

50% full is still better than an empty hall. 

Do the people who attend "esoteric" concerts also attend more traditional ones, or are there two separate groups?

[The new erato]

That's a difficult question but I notice quite some of the regular subscriber seats being empty at some concerts. There were decidedly some absentees at the V-W 9tht + Job in February, a superb concert BTW. It doesn't seem that adventurous programming draws in new corwds to any significant degree, certainly not enough to compensate for the regular crowd stating at home. 

[Karl Henning]

That's a difficult question but I notice quite some of the regular subscriber seats being empty at some concerts. There were decidedly some absentees at the V-W 9tht + Job in February, a superb concert BTW. It doesn't seem that adventurous programming draws in new corwds to any significant degree, certainly not enough to compensate for the regular crowd stating at home.

Subscribers sat out RVW, for goodness' sake?

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[(poco) Sforzando]

Well, as a regular concertgoer in Bergen, I know very well which of these concerts plays to a full house, and which only to a 50% full house.

Besides the point. Any orchestra that performs unfamiliar repertoire assumes a certain degree of risk. The point is that the music was chosen, the performers and conductor learned it, it was included in the orchestra's programming, it was advertised, and some attended. There is no guarantee that the hall will be filled (and as we've noted on other threads, venues will often "paper the hall," that is, give away free tickets, to create the illusion of greater support than might be actually the case).

[Brian]

First, what are your "couple really nice Lloyd symphonies"?

Second, the notion that the US is necessarily ultra-conservative (when compared to, say, Florestan's listing of concerts from Norway) seems to me dubious, as it fails to take economics into account. State funding for the arts is accepted in Europe to a degree unheard-of here, and concert promoters can scarcely be blamed for avoiding the risk of an expensively produced concert that draws only a small audience. Nor can the audience itself necessarily be blamed when ticket prices are astronomical and travel to and from a hall is time-consuming and expensive in itself. Be that as it may, the situation today seems to me vastly improved over the days when (IIRC) Barbirolli was dissuaded by the powerful impresario Arthur Judson from programming Berlioz's Fantastique with the New York Philharmonic, and had to substitute Beethoven's Pastoral. (I thought this anecdote was retold by Lebrecht, who is not always reliable, but I can't find it. Nonetheless, even se non è vero, è ben trovato.)

Yes - I should have made clear that the economics are the driving force behind America's programming conservatism. (Though, maybe I'm wrong altogether; did you see listener's post outlining the adventurous Spokane Symphony offerings?) I do stand by my comment about middle American season subscribers being more conservative, but the reason is economic and similar to what you say: subscriptions are expensive, and people like Mirror Image or myself are unlikely to afford them. I'm thinking about becoming a season ticket holder next year, for the first time ever - and even then, only a "mini" package of 6. Most Dallas season pass holders are, well, what you'd expect for Dallas.

-
George Lloyd: Sarge and others have a whole range of favorites; No. 7 gets some love on the board although I think it's a little chaotic. No. 4 is a truly peculiar combination of styles - the first movement starts out so decidedly "30s British" but then (4:30 in) it suddenly folds back into Glazunov/Borodin. An acquired taste, to be sure.

When he's "on", he's on because the themes are catchy, the old-fashionedness is convincing rather than goofy, and his eccentric imagination is hitting for a high batting average. For me, No. 5 is an all-time favorite guilty-pleasure. I'm a total sucker for that symphony. This symphony (just put it on). It is, surely, weird - you have a lyrical romantic who could be writing in 1890, but if he had been writing in 1890, there'd be a lot of raised-eyebrow "how'd he know that was coming?" The opening pastorale keeps getting undermined by weird unsettled ideas, and Lloyd doesn't allow the finale to resolve itself into a happy ending until the brass section figures out how the hell to make sense of the way the movement starts - with a bonkers trumpet solo that jumps right off the good ship Tonality.

Which is not at all an alluring description of a "guilty pleasure", I realize. I dunno. Maybe it's because I've known it for almost 10 years so the melodies are embedded in my brain. Or - more likely - because I'm just a total sucker for the 1890s, really good melodies, and a happy ending.

[Karl Henning]

Yes - I should have made clear that the economics are the driving force behind America's programming conservatism.

It's the "bums in seats" excuse which is ritually offered, anyway.

[PerfectWagnerite]

Subscribers sat out RVW, for goodness' sake?

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I wouldn't mind RVW's 9th, but Job would be hard to swallow, and that goes with most of the English oratorio music. I just don't associate with it.

Living in NY I think there is enough new music being performed by the likes of the NYPO and the Metropolitan opera. Even if we get mores of Lloyd or Alwyn or Brian people are always going to complain that xyz composer is "unjustly" neglected so it is a no-win situation for the performing organization. We like to think we know quite a bit about the quality of music on this board but I am willing to bet that the people making decisions as to what constitute "quality" and what deserves to be heard know infinitely more than we do. If Brian or Alwyn or Lloyd are worth more exposure, then like Mahler/Sibelius/Shostakovich/Nielsen their time will time.

[Jo498]

I think *any* RVW except maybe the Tallis fantasia would be fairly exotic in a concert program in Germany or Austria. (I don't know because I live in the country and do not follow what goes on in the large cities, and exotic does not mean non-existent. Norrington in Stuttgart might program RWV somewhat regularly)

[Karl Henning]

I wouldn't mind RVW's 9th, but Job would be hard to swallow, and that goes with most of the English oratorio music. I just don't associate with it.

Erm, Job is a ballet (masque), not an oratorio. Or do I misunderstand you?

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[PerfectWagnerite]

Erm, Job is a ballet (masque), not an oratorio. Or do I misunderstand you?

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Sorry I mistakenly thought it was the one by his fellow Englishman H. Parry.

I think *any* RVW except maybe the Tallis fantasia would be fairly exotic in a concert program in Germany or Austria. (I don't know because I live in the country and do not follow what goes on in the large cities, and exotic does not mean non-existent. Norrington in Stuttgart might program RWV somewhat regularly)

Can't really blame them as most would present music of their own countrymen ahead of foreigners if given the chance. Even great composers like Aaron Copland don't get their music performed outside of his native country very often, and most so-called "champions" of his music are American conductors. So maybe it can be excused that here in the U.S. we don't get our share of 20th century British composers.

[Jo498]

I think some of Britten's operas are done frequently in the German-speaking countries (there is not a lot of choice for fairly accessible mid-20th century opera) but even the "greats" of (late) romantic/early modern British (and also Scandinavian) music are not at all standard fare. It's fairly obvious that these are more popular in their native lands but it's not that lesser known German late romantics (e.g. Reger and Pfitzner) are very popular in Germany/Austria (except for organ and choral music by Reger which is not popular but frequently performed in those particular niches).
As I said above, one who seems to have made a "comeback" is Zemlinsky.

[Karl Henning]

Sorry I mistakenly thought it was the one by his fellow Englishman H. Parry.

I didn't know of that Parry oratorio. I'd be inclined to avoid it, myself 

[Herman]

I do have a grounding on post-Beethoven. I prefer the glorious colours of the vast late-Romantic/modern orchestra to the tameness of the Classical period or the Baroque, where you only need hear one piece to have heard everything.

In that case all you need to do is become a multi-billionaire and fund performances of these huge messy symphonies.

I was kind of surprised you mentioned just three composers you want to hear, and they were all of the British ilk.

Composers like Ginastera, Reger or Martinu have a more diverse body of work, including chamber music that can be performed (and recorded) without requiring vast resources personal and financial. Also, chamber music is a good avenue to hone one's composing skills.

[Maestro267]

In that case all you need to do is become a multi-billionaire and fund performances of these huge messy symphonies.

I was kind of surprised you mentioned just three composers you want to hear, and they were all of the British ilk.

Composers like Ginastera, Reger or Martinu have a more diverse body of work, including chamber music that can be performed (and recorded) without requiring vast resources personal and financial. Also, chamber music is a good avenue to hone one's composing skills.

I am British, so I am inclined towards composers from this part of the world. And the three composers I specifically mentioned are three of many (from all over the world) that are deserving of more attention than they get (the three you mention all included in that group).

[Parsifal]

Why don't you organize the London Symphony to play your precious works of Brian. Maybe musicians of that calibre earn $100 per hour, there are about 100 of them, so $10,000 per hour of rehearsal. Maybe it takes three days of rehearsal to get a program of Brian's bloated scores rehearsed, so $240,000. Then the conductors fee and orchestra performing fee, renting the hall. Maybe another $50,000, about $300,000 all told.

Then have your concert. When its all over, will you make a mint? Or will you be out $297,000?

Why would you expect orchestras to flush that amount of money down the toilet for the privaledge of performing to an empty hall?

To be fair, I think composers like Brian get more attention than they "deserve." No performance of their music could ever be justified by what people would be willing to pay to hear it, and there are numerous recordings made by state-subsidized orchestras which could never pay their own way. Whenever a new recording of only of my favorite "obscure" composers comes out I count my blessings.